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Unknown A
One thing that I really liked about Jordan Peterson is when Donald Trump won in 2016, there's a great interview between him and I think on Bill Maher where everyone's talking about how like, conservatives are so stupid and Jordan Peterson is like, that's fine. You guys can think that. But like, what are you going to do about them? Like, they're here, they just elected this guy. They're not going anywhere. What's your plan to engage or deal with these people? And they just kind of laughed it off. So if you go to other, like, more liberal spaces on the Internet, it's like, men are unsalvageable. They're trash. They're to be blamed for the patriarchy. The basic problem is that you have these multi billion dollar tech companies who understand how your mind works, but you don't understand how your mind works. A lie can make its way all around the world before the truth can get its shoes on.
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Unknown A
That's what we see on the Internet today, is the worst things spread the fastest.
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Unknown B
Hey, guys, how's it going? Today we're having an episode of Bridges with my great personal friend, Dr. K of Healthy Gamer. How's it going?
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Unknown A
Good, man. How are you?
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Unknown B
We're doing great. Cool.
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Unknown C
That's a wrap. All right, thanks for coming on.
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Unknown B
Welcome to Florida. We've had some personal. Not personal. We've had some, well, semi personal and on stream conversations before.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah, love those.
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Unknown B
Yeah, me too.
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Unknown A
I love talking to you, man.
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Unknown B
I think that you do a lot of cool stuff online in terms of coaching people, in terms of trying to bring kind of, I'll say, a less toxic version of like mental help to young men. Because I feel like aside from you, it's like you and then like all of the red pillars.
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Unknown A
Okay.
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Unknown B
It feels like there's a lot of fighting for that space and I'm sure there's probably other content creators out there as well that I just don't see because I'm not in that particular sphere. But. Yeah. What, man? I don't know why my mind is blanking so hard right now.
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Unknown A
I think it's great to be here. First of all, this is super cool.
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Unknown C
I'm really excited. I've been looking forward to it of this conversation for a long time.
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Unknown A
Yeah, me too. I think I've really enjoyed watching y'all. I enjoy engaging with y'all in terms of discussion. I think y'all are really good at talking. So I think we, in our previous conversations, I think each one has been really memorable for me. Really Fantastic. We get, we still hear a lot of positive feedback about the conversations that Destiny and I have had. So looking forward to talking with you, Kyla.
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Unknown C
Yeah, cool.
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Unknown A
Um, so, yeah, I think it'll be.
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Unknown B
Fun or real quick, I think. Yeah, I think an interesting dynamic is that we've spoken a lot before, but on bridges, these are generally first conversations with people. Yeah. So if you want, I guess, do you want to kind of catch the audience up with what you do and how would you describe it to, I guess anybody that was.
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Unknown A
So we try to help people, we try to help the digital generation with their mental health. That's like kind of what we do. So I'm a psychiatrist by training and one of the things that I found about, I want to say nine years ago now, so it's been quite the journey. So I was a second year resident at the time and was really concerned about tech addiction and talked to my mentors and stuff about it, but no one seemed, this is like back in 2015, so no one was super into tech addiction at that point. So I started working with predominantly like gamers who were struggling and then found that I was having the same conversations with them like over and over and over again. That a lot of what I was doing was not psychotherapy, but was more like psychoeducation, just teaching people about how their brain works, how their mind works.
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Unknown A
So then I started streaming about five years ago. Yeah. Wow. So I started streaming five years ago and my goal was just to educate people about how the brain works, how the mind works. I started on Twitch and then that sort of was a side hustle. So I had two jobs at the time, but then that kind of grew a lot. And now Healthy Gamer offers a lot of support for people who want to like get mentally healthy, especially around technology. And so we do three things. We do content, so we have a YouTube channel and we stream on Twitch and stuff like that. We have community, so we've got pretty robust community events like this year. We're also like focusing heavily on skills building. So how can a group of people like learn how to socialize, learn how to ask people out on dates, things like that.
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Unknown A
And then we do coaching, which is to help people sort of figure out what their goals are, how to achieve their goals, things like that. We take evidence based principles from disciplines like psychotherapy, but apply them to goals that are non pathologic. So psychotherapy is about, you know, the treatment of an illness usually.
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Unknown B
I thought you said you help gamers.
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Unknown A
What do you mean?
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Unknown B
Gaming is an illness?
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Unknown A
I'm just kidding.
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Unknown B
I haven't played games in a while. No, I'm sorry. I have tried game, but. No, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
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Unknown A
So that's kind of what we do.
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Unknown C
Okay. One thing that's interesting, you're. My discord actually talks about healthy gamer and stuff a lot. Okay. And there's this interesting kind of contention about your concept of AOE healing, essentially. Have you ever seen the Netflix show with Jonah Hill and his therapist?
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Unknown A
No.
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Unknown C
Oh, really? I'm surprised. It's fantastic. Okay. Dr. Stutz, I think is his name. But he's also very concerned with this idea how there's a lot of. There's a lot of talk about mental health on social media.
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Unknown A
Okay.
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Unknown C
And there isn't always very informed talk about mental health specifically. How do you feel like that bridge. Like, how do you bridge that dynamic? Because there's this. I feel like when I talk to a lot of psychotherapists and stuff, there's a lot of nervousness about talking on social media, particularly if they're experts of their field. And it feels like the less expertise somebody has, the more comfortable they feel talking on social media specifically about mental health. So how do you. How do you bridge that?
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Unknown A
Well, so, I mean, I think that's a great problem. I mean, it's not a great problem, but it is a great encapsulation of a fundamental problem. So I think I saw a study. I don't have the reference at the tips of my fingers, but there was a study that came out, I think, in late 2024, that did an analysis of ADHD TikToks, and I think it found that 95% of TikToks related to ADHD are somehow factually incorrect. So there is a gigantic amount of poor information out there. And the challenge is that, you know, if you're a mental health professional. So now we've got, like, a huge tide of people who have no professional experience doing something, but that also means that they don't have, like, professional oversight, liability concerns. So you can, like, you know, if you're a general person, you can show up on the Internet, say whatever you want to about depression, and that's probably going to be protected by free speech.
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Unknown A
If you're a mental health professional, you may be held to other standards. People could interpret what you're doing as treatment, things like that. I'm sure we'll get to that soon enough. And so I think a lot of mental health professionals feel very, very wary to have public Personas and understandably so. And at the same time, like, what that creates is the problem that you're describing, which is that according to one study, 95% of the information about ADHD is incorrect. So how do we sort of like, balance that? That's actually exactly what we try to do, is we try to figure out, okay, how can we offer high quality information about mental health at scale in a way that's like, entertaining and helpful? And I think we've been arguably relatively successful at doing that. So it's doable, but it's certainly not easy.
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Unknown C
Right.
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Unknown B
I feel like a couple challenges with that are. One is because you, I think you identify as. As your mind more than your body, it can be hard to separate out. If somebody's heard some things about a particular mental thing, they might identify strongly with it or begin to have, like, emotional feelings about it. And then it became harder to tease apart those things. So if somebody's heard something about. I know for a while it was. Did. Was a big thing on TikTok, but it might be things like ADHD or depression and thinking that, like, it works this way. And now I identify with this thing. I think teasing that apart in conversations with some people can be really difficult because it becomes a much more emotionally loaded conversation. Do you ever run into issues like this or is this not as big of a deal or.
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Unknown A
Yeah, I mean, all the time. Although I would frame it differently. So I think this is where you have to take a step back and understand a little bit about how the mind works. So, you know, I think the reason that a couple of things we have to look at. So first is what makes content spread on the Internet. So things that are emotionally charged tend to do really well. So the Internet loves a delta. So anytime we have a terrible person who is found to be good, the Internet will love that. Right. So I think we kind of saw that with like, the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial, where there was like a lot of interest in who was the villain and who's the hero or heroin. And then on the flip side, the Internet also loves a delta, where, like, if there's someone who is perceived as good, anything negative about them will be spread very, very widely.
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Unknown B
Martha Stewart.
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Unknown A
Martha Stewart. And also in that vein, Snoop Dogg, who's now like a wholesome figure. Right. It's really interesting. So I think people tend to focus on things that are, like, charged. That's what causes content to spread on the Internet. People really love a Delta. And then I think in terms of emotional engagement, I think a lot of what's going on with mental health and mental illness right now is that people feel incredibly validated when some experience they have in life can be ascribed to a mental illness. So we see this a lot where unfortunately, one of the challenges of, you know, working as a psychiatrist is I have patients who suffer from mental illnesses and also they use them as excuses. They use them to avoid responsibility. There's all kinds of research on the sick role and infectious disorder and malingering. We can get into that if you all want.
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Unknown A
So a really great example of that is that if you look at people who have something called pseudo seizures. So these are non epileptiform seizures. This is like seizure like activity, which is quote unquote fake is what some people will call it. It's just not epilepsy in the brain.
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Unknown C
So they don't show up on like an EEG or anything like that.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So it's non epileptiform. But 50% of the people who have pseudo seizures will also have epilepsy. So what oftentimes what we'll see is that people will start to, you know, they'll have a very legitimate epilepsy or seizure disorder and then they will also subconsciously utilize that kind of behavior or that sick role to kind of feel more validated, get their needs met. And I think we see this a lot right now with neurodiversity and ADHD where, you know, a lot of people believe they have ADHD because they have concentration. Concentration difficulties. But concentration difficulties have a differential diagnosis which doesn't always mean adhd. These are the kinds of nuances which I think we really miss in like a 60 second TikTok.
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Unknown B
Yeah. I think even if, I think even with a real therapist or real psychiatrist and a real patient who are trying to make improvements, it can be difficult to tease out the differences between these things. Not to get super personal, I guess, but for. Obviously I've talked with you about like ADHD or whatever and for a long portion of my life is basically my thought process is that like this isn't a real thing and I'm just lazy piece of shit and I'm just going to figure this out or whatever. And then on the flip side, there are people who might not have like you say some people will have a condition and then maybe they lean into it a little bit too much. There are some people won't have a condition at all, but will lean into it because. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, there's. I think it's.
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Unknown B
I can't believe I always forget his name. Is it Russell? Doctor Something? Russell Barclay. Yes. Who has a saying that, like, ADHD is, like, simultaneously, like, incredibly overdiagnosed and incredibly underdiagnosed at the same time because of the people that end up. Yeah. Qualifying for it.
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Unknown A
I came to that same conclusion. I didn't know he had said that. But that's good to hear because probably means it's true.
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Unknown B
A second thing, I guess, in how you do the coaching is I feel like for human bodies, generally speaking, it's pretty easy to know what is healthy or not healthy. There's a range. But generally, if you're having a heart attack, probably not good. If you're super obese, probably not good. Being physically fit is good. I feel like we never really talk about what makes for a healthy mind.
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Unknown A
Sure.
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Unknown B
And I don't know. Yeah. How do you even begin to figure out, like, how do I know if this person's mind is healthy? Or you must have some idea because you're trying to move people in a better direction, I would imagine, through coaching and whatnot.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think it's. It's a good point that, you know, we have a system that has annual physicals, but we don't have any old mentals. Right. So we don't have a good system to assure that people are mentally healthy. We don't have a really good system to help people become healthy. So if you look at psychiatry, psychiatry is primarily sick care. Right. So we'll have diseases and we can have certain tools to help those diseases. And we get this question all the time. Like, you know, people will ask, like, how do I know if my socialization capability is healthy? How do I know if I had, like, a healthy upbringing? What does a healthy mind even look like? What does a healthy relationship even look like? So it's incredibly challenging. What I tend to lean on is, generally speaking, like, some of these Eastern philosophies.
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Unknown A
So if you look at the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, I kind of call them like the karmic traditions, they developed a set of practices where their goal was not to treat any illness. Their goal was to attain the state of.
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Unknown B
Is that release yourself from all. No, I'm just kidding. I have. It's people. That's why. Sorry. But they really. Oh, probably not that much.
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Unknown A
No, no.
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Unknown B
Yeah, you're good. Sorry.
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Unknown A
So these systems were designed not to, like, heal anything, but to help people, help human beings achieve this theoretical state of enlightenment. Enlightenment, nirvana, moksha, call it whatever you want, which is like a state of, like, supreme happiness and contentment. And knowledge and all this good stuff. So I tend to lean into that for what. What's the target that we're really shooting for?
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Unknown C
Right. So one way I remember talking about it when I took a positive psych course was most of psychology is interested in taking you from like negative 8 to negative 2, ideally to 0, whereas positive psychology and kind of what you're describing as well is trying to take you from 0 to plus 4 to plus 8.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I would describe it almost, or I have described it almost identically. Where I think about the practice, practice of psychiatry is moving you from like negative 100 to 0 and then either coaching or spirituality is about moving from 0 to 100. And I had a patient once that I was treating for about two years and one day they came in and they were like, it's been two years and I feel the same, I'm still not happy and I don't think I've made any progress. And so we had done regular assessments using things like the Beck Depression Inventory and things like that. And we were able to demonstrate that he's actually in remission from depression. He hasn't been depressed for some time. And so we kind of came to the conclusion that you're not depressed, you're unhappy. There's a huge difference there. And the pathway to move from depression to normal and from unhappy to happy are like completely different in some ways.
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Unknown B
You wouldn't go to rehab to become like a bodybuilder, right? Absolutely.
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Unknown C
Do you think that a lot of like the mental health crisis that people talk about a lot of times when I hear about it, I wonder if we're having a like negative 8 to 0 problem or if we're having a 0 to positive 8 problem. And my suspicion is that it's the 0 to pos more so just because like what's going on uniquely in a first world country that for some reason mental health illnesses specifically would be so much more rampant in a, in a, in a country that has good health care and low crime and etc. Etc.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think we actually have a negative eight to zero problem. Okay, Right. So if you look at like just epidemiology, epidemiology prevalence data, you know, the rates of depression, mood disorders, the rates of anxiety disorders, body dysmorphia is evening out between men and women, which is primarily a rise of body dysmorphia in men. I think a lot of like incel ideology in many of the people that I've worked with I would say is almost like A flavor of body dysmorphia where they get very, very focused on certain physical features like jawline or height or whatever, right? And they become hyper fixated on this as a very deterministic whatever.
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Unknown B
So I spent a lot of time in these spaces. As soon as somebody says a certain thing about a face, I'm like, I know exactly. I know exactly who you are. Yeah, go ahead.
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Unknown A
Sorry. So I think it's interesting because despite all the advances in science, neuroscience, psychiatry, medicine, there's really only one branch of medicine that we're, like, losing the war in, which is mental health, right? So, like, outcomes for things like diabetes, outcomes for heart disease, outcomes for stroke, outcomes for rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, generally speaking, all of these things are getting better. The one place where we actually know that illness is growing and at an astronomical rate, actually like a really, really scary rate, is mental illness.
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Unknown C
Why?
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Unknown A
So I think two or three things. One is that I think we have a whole scale negative effect of technology on people's bodies, brains and minds. So there's tons of studies that show that basically the number of hours that you're on social media correlates with worsening mood, worsening anxiety, body image issues, things like that. So I think tech is a big part of it. There may be other things going on too, which I'm pretty sure there are. But I'd say that's the biggest thing, is that we have this very, very pervasive influence on our mind, which I think the average person in the United States uses a cell phone for four hours and 37 minutes a day. That number, I think, is actually low.
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Unknown C
I was gonna say that seems low.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think that's the average person, right? So that also assumes someone who's like, 52 years old and employed or whatever. So I think the opera limits of, like, studies look at six hours, six and a half hours. So I think we're having these influences on our mind. We don't really know what it's doing to us, and it's creating a lot of fomo. Like, we have all this language for it, right? FOMO and things like that. These are new problems. Imposter syndrome, burnout. These are all on the rise.
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Unknown B
I hate that I was on so many shows over this kind of. I call it the red pill arc. But a couple years ago, when Andrew Tate was, like, really big and this stuff was exploding, and, you know, I've been on a variety of shows arguing with different people over different things about, you know, modern ills and things with society. And something I've been saying for, for a few years is just I don't think people realize how fundamentally different our lives have changed from technology. And there are, I joke that there are even questions that show up in chat sometimes and I, I don't even know the answer where like people will like, I remember thinking about like, how did we even keep track of each other as children? Like when I'm in high school and I'm gonna go meet up with some friends, I don't even know if I could do that now because how.
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Unknown B
Because once you're in the car and you can't like call them or like know where anybody's at, but you just kind of like knew where people were. Which is like one of like a billion examples of how tech and the way that we've interacted with the world and with our loved ones and with everything. I remember during high school time when you might talk to a girlfriend only on weekends, because if you don't go to the same school, I went to an all boys school. So you might only talk to your girlfriend Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever. You might not even call her some weekends or some week, some weekdays. Whereas when I was in high school, the iPhone came out, I think in 2007. And then a little bit before that, texting daily became like not even an expectation, but like a requirement for a relationship.
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Unknown B
You didn't ignore a text for two days. That was crazy. And even in my lifetime, I'm 36. Yeah. It's been basically from no Internet to maximum penetration to where your refrigerator might need WI fi access to cool your. But there's like. But nobody is so boring. Nobody wants to talk about it because it's not like an exciting like technology. The same way you can talk about like incels or feminism or woke or conservative or whatever. And yeah, it's very frustrating. That was like an afterthought.
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Unknown A
What's frustrating?
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Unknown B
That it feels like there should be so much more attention paid to how dramatically tech and interacts with and affects our life. But I feel like the vast majority of that conversation is just taken up by people blaming whatever I guess ideological thing they're opposed to.
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Unknown A
Well, I think that depends on where you go.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
So like, you know, I think that conversation is being had in a very focused and like problem solving way in some areas. Like, so I think, you know, we're involved with an organization called nadac, which is the national association of addiction professionals and counselors. So they're really focused on tech addiction. The surgeon General of the United States is really focused on tech addiction. So I think if you look at like academic circles, some kinds of like policy shops and things like that, I think those kinds of people, People like Jonathan Haidt.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
You know, So I think that those, now those conversations are being had, like back when I got interested in it nine years ago, like literally no one was talking about it.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
And I think that's also where it's so, so common. It's so interesting. You're talking about the maximum penetration of technology and it's interesting how you frame this as no one is talking about it, but that's because the slice of the Internet that you're exposed to, no one is talking about it.
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Unknown B
Yeah. Although I would say that like, even so, like how many states so far in the US have banned, I think like, or basically restricted access to pornography? I think it's like, are we up to seven or eight now? But it was Australia that limited social media access. I think people 16 and under.
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Unknown A
Yeah, I think that happened last year, right? Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown B
So I think it's a very important step or I think it's, I think it's a very positive thing, personally. But I don't know in the United States if we would even be ready to have that like policy wide discussion.
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Unknown C
Florida doing that.
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Unknown B
Are they.
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Unknown C
I pretty sure DeSantis had some ruling about 14 year olds not using social media. I don't know if it's gone through yet. I just know it's.
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Unknown A
Yeah, I think there's, there's, you know, there's, there's things like the Kids Online Safety act, which is, you know, people have criticized it for all kinds of things. I think it passed the House. I don't know if it's passed the Senate yet. You know, I heard that it probably won't pass the Senate, who knows? But like, I think that there's an awareness of it now. So we'll see. I mean, you know, I think a.
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Unknown C
Lot of young, like, especially like younger people are really frustrated by the tech conversation because I think, remember when Al Gore like pushed global warming really aggressively and he was like, by 2012, like, lands will be deserts and like was really, really fear mongering and stuff like that. And it kind of like in many ways like burnt people out on the message because it was like, wait, this isn't true. I feel like older generations did that a lot with tech where they're like, video games are making you violent and like all these sorts of things, which was like, didn't really Kind of bear evidence, mostly because I think they were identifying the wrong problem with technology. But I think a lot of, like, when. Even, like, when I was younger, when I'd hear older people be like, oh, careful about how much time you spend on the phone, I'd be like, yeah, okay, whatever, Boomer.
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Unknown C
Because it was such a. Like, it was blamed for so many things that it was like, you. This is what you blame punk music for, like, 20 years ago. And before that, it was, like, reading and comic books. So, like, I'm not interested in hearing it. And I wonder if, like, part of what's happened for, like, younger people and their reticence to think about this is that it was kind of, like a really overdone song and dance that was completely misidentifying the problem.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, you know, when. When there's a generational gap and people are talking about how technology is the problem, and we talk about how technology is a problem all the time, and a lot of people listen to us. A lot of those people are very young, you know, like, 16, 18. I think our average age used to be 24. Now it's like, 32. But I think especially, like. So, you know, like, the first book I wrote was about parenting. And that's because, like, my generation of people, like, I'm in my early 40s now, like. Like, our generation of people are now starting to have kids, and people are, like, way more cognizant of the damaging effects of technology. I think if you ask most people who are in their late 30s or early 40s, they are very, very aware that technology can have negative effects.
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Unknown A
And so I think that, like, there is a way to talk to people. And you're spot on that I would agree with you that, you know, I think the way that problems were framed was incorrect. So violence in video games is a great example. Even if you look at it today, you know, the way that video games are labeled for, like, M for mature has nothing to. There's no safety issue. There's no safety awareness about addictive potential. All the safety awareness is about the perceptions of violence. And study after study after study has basically shown that violence in video games does not lead to violence in real life. So I think that there was a lot of misunderstanding of the problem by older generations. And since they're communicating something that doesn't resonate with the people that they're talking to, it just gets a lot of pushback.
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Unknown A
Whereas I'm working on, I guess, a deep dive right now about if You're a desperate college student. How do you put together your life? And how do you actually start passing your classes? How do you write a thesis? I've had a ton of experience of going through this myself, but also like working at community mental health centers where I was in Boston. And so students from like Emerson or mit, Harvard, whatever, like, you know, whatever community college. So those kinds of problems, I think people that really resonate with people, like younger people, those work really well. So I think you're spot on that we just have to frame things in a way that people actually care about.
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Unknown B
I think a couple other issues too, is that one, at least growing up there's a lot of negative associations between limiting tech and authority figures or adults, because it usually just came in the form of a punishment. So no computer just meant that you misbehaved. And then two, I think an issue is sometimes people are too grand in the problem. They'll say that like, you know, like, if you spend too much time on this, it's going to destroy your life. And you can think of a million counterexamples. Ironically enough, I guess DARE was like this. Like if you smoke a marijuana, you're going to become addicted to crack, you know, the next day.
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Unknown A
And do you guys know about outcomes around dare? You all seen this?
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Unknown C
Oh, I know, I read it. I can't remember.
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Unknown A
But the interesting thing is that DARE was probably harmful. Okay, so dare, like the. There's a study came out many years ago, I think now that basically showed that like, you know, your dose response to dare, like how much exposure you had to dare decreased your chance of sobriety or like it increased the risk of having problems with drugs.
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Unknown B
Interesting. Yeah.
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Unknown A
I don't know why.
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Unknown B
Not surprising. Yeah. Yeah. And then the second thing is I feel, and I feel like there's a big problem with a lot of stuff, even in my world, like politically is people oftentimes don't give realistically actionable things. Like someone will say like technology is harmful. And it's like, okay, it's like, yeah, like put your phone down forever. Like there's not. Like no one will ever say, like technology is really harmful. You should. I say no one. But I'm sure there are some people, but sometimes it feels like it's a big doomsday thing and then it's like an intractable problem and then you're just kind of like there to be made of upset about it. And then there's nothing actionable. It feels like the messaging sometimes.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think there are a Couple reasons for that. So. So one is, I mean, I think that's what we tried to do. Yeah, we've figured out, I think that. So, I mean, this is the problem of the Internet. Okay. So the basic issue with the Internet is if you offer someone a solution, that will be boring. If you offer someone a solution, people will not engage with it and your content will never see eyes. So it's interesting. We were, I went to the White House last year and had some conversations and one of the things that, you know, someone there asked me about was like, how do we show people that the US economy is doing well? Like we want to, you know, show people that things are.
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Unknown B
Please tell me the answer. I'm so curious.
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Unknown A
What do you think the answer is?
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Unknown B
I have absolutely no idea. Because if I even touch this topic, it's so nuclear meltdown.
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Unknown A
It took me a little while, but I tried to explain to them that you guys are spending energy on the wrong area. Don't tell people that things are doing well, resonate with their problems. So talk to them about what you've done, but how there's still a long way to go because there's just not an emotional resonance.
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Unknown B
You're going to finish that. Yeah.
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Unknown A
And that's what we've kind of found is that like, you know, if I make a video basically focusing on the problem and understanding the problem, I think works way better than the solution. And generally speaking, if you look at human beings, their capacity to implement solutions is incredibly low. The third thing to consider, which I think a lot of people don't put a lot of emphasis on, is that sounds crazy. Most human beings don't usually need solutions. So what most human beings need is for their emotions and some amount of validation, their emotions to be decompressed so that they can think clearly. So if you look at like a lot of what we see in psychotherapy or in coaching, you know, I work with so many coaches who are like, my client has, is struggling with this, is struggling with this, is struggling with this.
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Unknown A
Like, I don't know how to solve their problems. I don't know how to solve their problems. And then, you know, generally speaking, what we sort of counsel for is like, you know, there's certain evidence based techniques that we use, but generally speaking, what happens if you stick with it long enough, all boats will start rising together. So once people like, and I know that if you're, I mean, I would imagine people who are listening this can resonate with this. Where the biggest problem with most people's lives is that they're in their own way. Like, you can't get out of your own way. Like, you know you can study hard, you know you can work hard, you know you can be more patient. The only problem is that for whatever reason you're getting in your own way, you can't bring your best self forward. So oftentimes one of the biggest things that I've learned is that like, you know, just explaining problems to people, helping them feel sort of somewhat validated.
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Unknown A
But I don't think it's just validation for the sake of validation. Like, I don't think that's enough. I think you really need to help people understand why they work the way that they do. And once you give someone an owner's manual to their body, their brain, their mind, that's how I really view you. The work that I do, like, sure, it's like mental health for the digital generation. But I think the basic problem is that you have these multibillion dollar tech companies who understand how your mind works, but you don't understand how your mind works. So there is a fundamental like, difference in the quality of like, weaponry on each side. One, one side is playing with like straws and little wads of spit, and the other side is playing with like nuclear weapons. And all we really need to do is equip people with the knowledge of how they work.
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Unknown A
Where do your desires come from? Why is it that you can't focus? What does TikTok do to your focus? What goes on when you, when you watch a bunch of ADHD TikToks? How does that affect you? And the more that we equip people with an understanding of how they work, generally speaking, we see good outcomes.
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Unknown B
I just had a conversation with former Governor of Maryland Martin O'Malley and it was really funny. From a political perspective, what you just said was a message basically that he gave me like a week ago that and I'm going to try to reframe all of my stuff into that. And it's actually basically identical to what you said, but in a different way. When I look at the 2016 election, you had an interesting difference in messaging to where I would argue the conservative side was a much more identifying problems. Right. We want to make America great again. And then on the Democratic side, Hillary went with the basically America's already great. So, like there are no problems. And then this is kind of like the dichotomy between the two. And one of the things that Governor O'Malley told me was when you talk about problems, I think the Expression he used was and, but.
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Unknown B
So everything has to be spoken of in an and but so way. So housing in the United States is amazing and we've built so many places where people can live, but there's an affordability issue for young people. So we're going to continue to do these types of things in order to. That it starts with like, identify, like what's really great, but identify an area that's a problem. So these are the actions that we're going to take to move forward. And that type of, like, hybridization of identifying what's good but then also identifying problems. Yeah. Is something that, on a political perspective, I think is very, very challenging to do because you run into the issue of like, either making everybody feel like everything is falling apart and then everybody's just angry and upset all the time, or delegitimizing how people genuinely feel about the world they live in and saying that nothing is bad and everything is okay.
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Unknown A
Why is that hard? I'm confused. I think you made it pretty simple.
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Unknown B
Well, that. Well, yeah, it sounds simple. Now we're not talking about anything, but like, if you.
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Unknown A
No, I mean, I think that's it. Right.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
So I don't think that that's hard. I think it's so. I think if you love complexity, like you, then it's hard.
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Unknown B
I wish I could pull you into my world and have you get beat up for. No, I mean, you have to live in my world. So, like, like one thing might be I, you know, I don't know how much. Well, I think or not, but like. So the healthcare thing is very complicated in the United States and that if you talk to people about healthcare in the United States, basically the opinion is everything is horrible, everybody's dying all the time, all these people being denied everything is like completely falling apart. Went on the aggregate. Health care in the United States has some huge advantages. We do a lot of contribution to research. It's very expensive. Our access isn't that great. But like, if you even begin to have that conversation, like, it feels like you get eviscerated for saying anything positive whatsoever because the, the overarching narrative has to be that it's completely like in shambles.
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Unknown B
I guess. Yeah.
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Unknown A
I don't know. I mean, I, I think you are right and I don't agree entirely with your conclusion. Okay, so I think everything you said makes perfect sense, but I think it's just. It's like you said and. But so, like, that's the problem. Right? So you're saying if you try to say anything is good, then people will respond to that very negatively. Fair enough. But I think if you say, hey, health care is crap, but at least we've got this going for us, I tend to find that when you meet people where they're at emotionally, first decompress that emotion, then they tend to be pretty open minded. Right. So. And I think a lot of that is also like the way that you interact with people. So like we know this. So if you look at like addiction psychiatry, so for a long time that was kind of my bread and butter.
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Unknown A
So there's this technique that we use called motivational interviewing. There are other techniques that are comparable, but I think it's like one of the best. I love motivational interviewing because it's an evidence based technique that is all about helping people change behavior. And I think if you understand motivational interviewing, like your ability to create political messaging would be like through the roof. So. And it's very similar to this and, but so thing. So when you, you know, talk to someone who's an alcoholic, you start with open ended questions. You don't start with, hey, alcohol is a problem. If you create, if you start with alcohol as a problem, what you're going to run into is denial. You'll run into defense mechanisms. They'll get activated. I see you nodding along. I know you've done work in addictions, right?
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Unknown C
Yeah, I was trained in MI specifically. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So, and so that's not where you start. So like you start with a stage called pre contemplative where the person doesn't know that there is a problem. Then you move on to a second stage. So you just start asking questions like what do you think about your drinking? And then what you'll generally speaking encounter is that most human beings, even though their mind, they believe that their mind is made up, but their mind isn't made up. So what makes someone's mind made up, quote unquote, has everything to do with which parts of their brain are active in the moment. So when you have adrenaline flowing through you, and this is like a survival mechanism, so adrenaline turns your thinking into black and white. So when I get like attacked by a tiger in the forest or jungle or whatever, like, I hate it when that happens. I hate it when that happens.
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Unknown B
Right.
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Unknown A
I have, I have. That's right. There's no nuance to it. You hate it. You don't love it. It's either you love it or you hate it. There's nothing in the middle. So there's no shades of gray. So I think this is where I think it's really interesting because you're talking about. It's hard to convince people this is the reaction that they have. But this is where I'd say, like, take a step back. And my experience is that convincing people is not about convincing a person. You're assuming that a person is static, that their beliefs are static. I could say the same exact thing, let's say to my wife on one day, and if y'all are married, hopefully you understand this. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Or in a relationship, you could say the same damn thing. But the state of mind of the listener will determine what the response is.
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Unknown B
I brought this up on a personal level because I'll tell people after I have a debate with somebody and the person is clearly wrong on something, or there might be a conversation where I'm clearly wrong. I usually tell people that I never expect somebody to change their mind in the moment, ever. That will never happen. Because you're in an argument. The hope is that like over the next few days or weeks or whatever, they'll kind of reconsider. Because I ask for that same courtesy, even for my audience. Like, I could be totally wrong or something. But I'm never, very rarely in the heat of an argument. I'm like, you're right, I f ed up. Like, it's just. That's never going to happen. But give me like a few days and I'll. I'll come around.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think that's where if you want to like, you know, talk about health care, you have to meet people where they're at. You have to start by, with kind of emotional decompression. Once the amygdala shuts off, right. Once your limbic system is no longer active, then their analytical brain can sort of start to leverage, they can start to activate. Then they can be a little bit more open minded. I often find that when you're in an argument, they're going to be empathically matching your energy. So when I was in residency and working in the emergency room, we had a big problem with something called K2. So K2 is like synthetic marijuana really messes people up. Like, they get like psychotic and aggressive and things like that. And so one of the really fascinating things, you know, there's this idea that when someone is really angry, the right thing to do is to like, try to be calm.
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Unknown A
But one of my brilliant teachers, like taught me that, no, like you should go in there and you should get angry at them. So if Like a patient starts yelling at you, like you should yell back. So you match the their energy and then you consciously start toning down your energy. So I, I walk into the, the emergency room and the patient is like, you like I don't want to be here. And I'm like, hey man, you, I'm just trying to help. I just work here. Like it's not my fault. I didn't bring you here. And then you like then I visibly take a deep breath. I'm like, look dude, my bad. Like I know you don't want to be here. Like it's not, I know it's, it's not your fault. I know you want to leave. Like my bad. So you actually match their energy first and then you ratchet your energy down.
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Unknown A
It is amazing how consistently that works. Their energy will come down with you. And so I think these kinds of basic like things about, you know, how to like understand who you're talking to. So once you like match their energy and you start bringing things down then they can enter a more open minded space. And I, you know, I think we've, we've talked about this before where like I'm amazed by like how open minded people can be. You know, I've worked with people who are homophobic, who are very religious, very anti religion, believe in one thing, believe in another thing, like whatever. And I'm amazed like I have a lot of actually faith in humanity that when you can get a human being like kind of calm and thinking like how flexible they really can be, how willing to change they can be.
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Unknown B
I go through this a lot of, in terms of thinking like God, people are stupid to man, people are pretty smart to people are stupid people. And I'm on the people I think are generally actually really smart. But our brain gets shut off. You're using you know, amygdala and the brain parts. But I'm, I'm thinking more like politics or social issues will just shut off parts of people's brains.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
To where it's inhibiting your ability to think about it. But I'll argue with someone and I'll be like God, this person was so wrong about or they're so stupid about like vaccines. But then I'm thinking in the argument and this person is like rattling off like numbers and quotations from figures online and it's like it's not a stupid person. If they just had like.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
In my mind I would say different information would be better. But yeah.
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Unknown A
Right. So, so I think that's a great way to approach it. Right. So I think this is what's really confusing. So, you know, I remember when I was in. When Donald Trump won the election in 2016, I was in residency at the time and I trained at Harvard, which is like hyper liberal institution. Right. So many people in the residency were really, really upset and they had a lot of trouble, like understanding how people could vote for Donald Trump. Now I grew up in Texas, so I have a much better insight into, like why people would vote for Donald Trump. And I tried to kind of share that perspective. I'm not saying I agree or disagree or whatever, but just sort of representing what I had heard from people that I know and their capacity to listen just wasn't there. So I think when you're kind of talking about, you know, people are, humans are stupid.
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Unknown A
Humans are smart. Humans are stupid. Humans are smart. I think there are a couple lessons that I've learned. The first is that that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not that human. Humans are stupid and humans are smart. It's which parts of the brain are active at a given time. The second thing is. What did I want to say? Oh, yeah. The second thing is that if you think someone has a belief that you think is incredibly stupid, that means that. I don't know how to say this. That means that there has to be something. So if you can't see why someone is doing something, or let me think about a better example. Okay, so let's say like I'll use a clinical example. So one time I had a patient who's addicted to heroin.
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Unknown B
Good drug to Beta Kituka, a very addictive drug.
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Unknown A
Yep.
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Unknown B
Feels good. So, so, and don't recommend, but yeah.
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Unknown A
It was early in my career and the person was like, they were doing really well in life. They were like before the heroin. Were married or still were married at that point, you know, had kids, had two teenage children, very successful professionally. And so like, I was really confused about, like, you know, why does this person continue to use heroin? It's wrecking your job, it's wrecking your marriage. It's like destroying your relationship with your children. It's messing up your health. And so like, I don't understand, like, why you don't stop. Right. So the more negatives that I see, what that means is that. And I don't see the positives, but if you see a ton of negatives, then there has to be something even stronger on the positive side for that person to engage in their behavior.
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Unknown B
Yeah, right. So when I talk about this. I always try to stress to people that, like, nobody is ever crazy. Or even if somebody is crazy and they seem like they're being irrational, the behavior is never random. There's usually a really good reason even for, like, maladaptive behaviors are not random. Behaviors are maladaptive because they were adaptive to something and they probably work. And it's so funny because people will have like, this guy's such a piece of shit. It's like, well, why? Because every time we get into an argument, he starts screaming and he does this and it's like, okay, what happens afterwards? Like, why? Just, you know, I just walk out or whatever he wants. Like, you know, it. Like, I don't care anymore. And it's like, sounds to me like he's doing exactly what he should be doing because he's getting what he wants every single time.
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Unknown B
So it's not actually random at all. It's not crazy at all. It seems like it's working perfectly. So I understand. Yeah.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I. I think that's where. Like, when anytime we're talking about, you know, people who believe really stupid things, there's a lot of emotional charge. And I think that if you think someone believes something incredibly stupid, you need to try extra hard to understand what that is. And what I tend to find also because human beings are, like, empathic, is that the harder I try to understand their point, the harder they will try to understand mine. Because generally speaking, will mirror, right? If I walk up to you and I smack you across the face, you will respond to that with anger and. And, you know, maybe violence or whatever. And if someone says, I don't know if you'll ever see. But, like, you know, like, you know, if you're at the airport and, like, the person who's checking you in for your flight is like, have a nice flight.
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Unknown A
And you're like, you too. Even though they're not going anywhere, Right? So we'll say these kinds of things all the time. So I think that, like, really understanding that if someone really understanding how to meet people, kind of where they're at emotionally, really doing your best to try to understand where they're coming from, why they believe the things that they. They do, is a really, really great way to, like, decompress them, increase your own understanding and even get your point across.
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Unknown C
Do you think that this can work at, like, an aggregate level? Like, I wonder sometimes if, like, this. This lens works really well, individual to individual. But say you're dealing with punditry and an aggregate of society, right? So you're talking about politicians talking to constituents, you're talking to, to a pundit with an audience. This level of like meeting each other at the same level and then bringing it back down. Do you feel like that works at an aggregate level or does, does the individual generalize?
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Unknown A
Well, no. Yes. So I think it absolutely works at an aggregate level, which is why pundits are pundits. So what makes someone a pundit? The fact that they are able to meet a group of people emotionally where they're at. And if you look at what a pundit will do. Right, so you can analyze any pundit, they will speak to a problem that people can resonate with and then they will decompress that emotion and they will present them with solutions. So, like, I think that's exactly how it works. It absolutely works at an aggregate level. And if you all want to see this, you can check out our YouTube channel because we will talk about things like depression, anhedonia, dysthymia, borderline personality disorder. And generally speaking, what we found is that, you know, connecting with people where they're at and then leading them somewhere, you have to connect in order to lead.
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Unknown A
So I think it absolutely works. And I think some people are very, very good at it. And that's how they become pundits, because they're very good at resonating. You mentioned Andrew, Trey, Andrew Tate, and I think it's funny that you mentioned him in the past tense because it's not going to be that way for long.
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Unknown B
What does that mean? You think he's coming back for sure? I don't think think so. So we'll see.
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Unknown A
So I, I think that, you know, some people are able to speak to others in a way that really connects with them emotionally and then they lead them in a particular direction. So I think it absolutely works. That's how 95% of TikToks about ADHD end up wrong. It's not about it being right or wrong, it's about it connecting with the audience.
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Unknown B
I feel like I, I feel like I disagree, but I don't know if I want the bend of this conversation to go more political or more just like mental health in general. Do you want to explore this?
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Unknown C
I wanted to ask politically, actually, specifically, like, how do you. So, like I hear this, like, I understand, I understand what Alex Jones resonates with his audience. Right. I understand why these various pundits resonate with their own audience base. The question is, how do you, like, bridge that political divide? How does a left leaning speaker reach and connect with right leaning voters and find connection. Maybe this is.
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Unknown B
Or can I. Yeah. No, no, because I had a very similar ish question. Like I think the differences. So earlier it's funny I said that physical health is a little bit. Is definitely more narrowly defined as mental health, which is much wider defined as opposed to like political health, which is undefined. So the challenge, I guess I would give is if I want to resonate with depressed people. Hopefully I'm not making content about I'm depressed. And being depressed is actually awesome. And screw big Pharma and screw coaches and screw everybody else trying to help us with our depression. We're going to be depressed and that's awesome. But I think for political content, I don't think it feels like the goal isn't to move people. The goal is to meet people where they're at and stay there. And so I feel like it's fundamentally different type of like if I'm in like camp left or camp right.
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Unknown B
My goal, when I. Not me personally, but like my goal as a pundit is to find all those people and scoop them up and just keep them in my camp. And I'm not trying to challenge them or move them in a direction.
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Unknown A
Why do you think they're.
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Unknown B
The goal is not to move them because they're. Because they're in our camp. And the problem is just like the other side. And the goal is to just like reinforce the thoughts. Like I'm looking to resonate, not to change, but just resonate. To keep us all resonating with each other. Yeah.
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Unknown A
Why do you think that they're not moving?
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Unknown B
I think that they are moving, but I don't think they're moving in challenging directions. I think they're moving in ways that are like satisfying on a more like, I don't want to say hedonistic level, but like on a more like. Yeah, like if I'm going to. My idea would be if I'm going to a coach, I'm going here to be challenged. It's not always going to be like, oh, we're chatting and having fun and you're just like telling me everything's cool and great and then I leave and I just feel awesome. Like at some point I imagine there's going to be some type of like confrontational, like, this is a thing I need to work on or. Yeah, go ahead.
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Unknown A
I think that says a lot more about you.
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Unknown B
Sure, maybe.
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Unknown A
Right. So like spoken from someone who engages in political argument on the Internet as your job. Right. So you're Looking for challenge. But I don't think that. I think that says more about you.
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Unknown B
So I look for challenge because I'm awesome. Okay. But I would say, like, most political stuff, if you watch it. I watch a lot of political stuff, obviously. I feel like there's not a lot of challenging content. It's more, this is the enemy. Look at how bad they are. And we're just going to talk about that the whole time, and that's it. There is no desire to foster any type of growth or movement in the audience. It's my perception. You tell me how I'm wrong. Go ahead.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think it's just like. I think there's a certain way you're defining movement and growth.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
Right. So, like, I don't know if y'all have ever donated to a politician, but if you ever get on a politician's donor registry, they will hammer you with emails, texts. They are absolutely trying to get you to move in a direction. Right. They don't want to use donated $10 once. They don't want you to stop there. They're gonna challenge you to donate again and again and again and again and again and again and again. I mean, like, you know, one of my family members donated to a political campaign. They get five or more communications a day. So I think all of these pundits are trying to challenge people. They're trying to get them to move because the world is falling apart. And unless us good soldiers, us last bastions of righteousness, unless we adopt the challenge to protect our country and to save the world from everything falling apart, everything will fall apart.
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Unknown A
That's the messaging of the pundits.
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Unknown B
It's really funny that you say that, because she brought up Alex Jones earlier, and the only time I've ever heard him shut up for a second my entire life was when we were on stage in Austin, a show, and he just gave that exact rant. And I asked him, because I get so frustrated when pundits give these types of rants. And I asked him, I was like, okay, let's say everything you say is true. What do you want your audience to do about it? What are they supposed to do? Because I feel like a lot of the pundits, there's no political action. It's just donate money or buy their products. And he had nothing to say for a good 10 seconds. He just kind of thought about it. It was like, okay, what is the point of this? It feels like, yeah, I guess to define my terms when I say challenge.
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Unknown B
Somebody not challenge you to donate more money, but challenge you to move thought paths. Like, again, if I'm going to, like, coaching or something. Yeah, my understanding, I'm trying to move off of like, a certain path, but I feel like the political stuff is just continued on. Yeah, go ahead.
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Unknown A
Yeah, but I mean, I think that that once again speaks more to your mind than it does to others. So, like, if you ask, you know, I would say 50% of human beings on the planet don't believe that the solution has anything to do with changing their thought patterns. Right. Like, if you talk to people about, you know, what's. Like we talked about tech the other day, like, just earlier, like, boomers. Boomers don't think they need to understand technology. They think that you need to be on your cell phone less. Even though, shockingly enough, seniors are really addicted to cell phone games, Candy crush, all kinds of, like, you know, predatory behavior against seniors who are, like, they're very tech addicted too. So I think that this conception that growth involves changing a thought pattern is a preconception of yours. Right. So if, I mean, I have some members of my family who are like, very religious.
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Unknown A
Growth and progress in their mind does not mean altering different beliefs. Growth and progress means, hey, Alok, you need to come to this thing more. Come more, come more. You need to come more. You need to bring your children. There's no. This presumption that challenge growth and thinking in different ways are all like the same thing. Like, that's a huge axiom.
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Unknown B
So do you think that every, I guess, like, approach to. I'll just say broadly political problems, do you think all approaches are equally valid or.
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Unknown A
No?
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Unknown B
Okay, Right.
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Unknown A
So. So hold on a second.
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Unknown B
Yeah, go ahead.
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Unknown A
We're talking about what is okay. Not what is good or what is right or what should be done. But like, my, my main point is that like, like, I don't think a lot of people, I mean, the world doesn't, you know, revolve around people challenging their thought process. It's kind of like what you alluded to. I do think pundits move people.
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Unknown B
Right. So when you say move, how are you defining that? What does that mean to you?
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Unknown A
Like, engender some kind of activity?
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Unknown B
Okay, yeah, maybe. I mean, I think I'd be using that word way differently. Yeah. When I'm saying move, I mean like change an opinion or change.
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Unknown A
But I think that they do. Pundits do try to change people's opinions. Absolutely.
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Unknown B
I think they change them individually, but not like categorically. So, like the Way that I would say is that like, if I'm looking at like a right wing ecosphere or a left wing ecosphere, if I step into that ecosphere, nobody is going to say anything that makes me uncomfortable or makes me reexamine some fundamental belief or idea. We're all kind of like moving together in the same direction and we're kind of like.
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Unknown A
Yeah, but, but I mean, that's true. But there's still moving.
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Unknown B
Okay.
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Unknown A
Right. And like, and that's where, like, I think it's really interesting. Like, I don't, I don't think that movement is, you know, across.
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Unknown B
Yeah, okay. That's how I was.
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Unknown A
Right. So I mean, if you look at the things like, you know, flat Earthers or climate change or vaccines or Covid or whatever, like people are getting moved all the time, right? So like when there are people who are like, you know, moving people on the political spectrum, I think what they're doing is they're. Or like when you have these pundits, right, who are talking about stuff like, I mean, the number of women I've worked with whose boyfriends and, or fiances and or husbands go down the red pill rabbit hole, there's a lot of change happening. There's a lot of movement happening. There's a lot of, you know, you not doing my dishes means that you're emasculating me as a man. There's all kinds of change happening. People are getting moved all the time. But I think you're not. I understand we have like potentially a definition problem.
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Unknown B
Okay, so let me ask a question, actually, because there's a. I give this as an example and you can talk me through this. I feel like there's an interesting thing that happens. I'm using these phrases like challenging or confrontational. And in my mind, what I envision this as if somebody says something that does not immediately resonate with me, but I feel like it should. This conversation for me is challenging. A lot of our conversations are because you have a much different perspective and I actually don't. Like, emotionally, I don't like your perspective. I would rather argue in mine and then be there. So I have to challenge myself to like, okay, hold on. Maybe my whole thought process here needs some adjustment. So then I try to adopt your perspective, but that's like a thing I have to like really go through because my intuition is to just fight on everything and keep you in my way, you know?
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Unknown B
Yeah, well, no, I don't have to. But the. So one thing I would talk to people is sometimes People can challenge you in a way that is like very challenging versus challenge you in a way that's kind of like, I call it fake bullshit, but you're gonna say that's maybe too loaded or something. And a comparison I'll say is like for Red pill world, somebody will say something like, I'm gonna tear you down and build you back up. Okay. But the tear down process is a form of it's. All of it is enjoyable. Right? So if I open a podcast and they're like, you're a weak piece of shit and you have to take more responsibility for your life and you need to do all these things and this is how you're going to conquer the world and blah, blah, blah. It comes across like, man, this guy's being really mean, but you're going to be better off at the end for it.
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Unknown B
But in reality the person is actually enjoying it. They're loving the whole process. As opposed to a conversation where somebody might say, okay, we need to improve where you're at in the world. You haven't talked to your mom and dad in five years. You need to call them and do this. Your, these relationships are failing. Where it's like, you'll come away from one conversation, the first one be like, yeah, yeah, this is awesome, let's go. But the second conversation you come away from, you're like, whoo, okay, this is, geez, I gotta work on stuff. And I feel like these are always presented the same, but I'm curious, do you see this differently at all? And then I'm tying this back into like what a challenge is, I guess when I think about.
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Unknown A
Absolutely. So these are, these are like night and day. So you see those different, right?
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Unknown B
Yes.
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Unknown A
Don't worry, we'll step into your world. Okay, so, so I completely agree. So there's a couple of like. So I think this is where sophistication of language and understanding how the mind works becomes really important. So there's a term in psychiatry called ego syntonic and ego dystonic. I don't know if you're Kyla, feel free to jump in. So you know, I think with, with one thing. So when someone has a low self esteem, right. So if we look at like red pill, red pill appeals to people who are basically betas, the people who are, who are true alphas or sigmas, like don't engage in red pill content. And I know that that's a very contentious statement, but generally speaking, what I found is that the people, the majority of people that I know in My life and the patients that I've worked with, the clients that I've worked with, the friends that I have, you know, who would fit the criteria of alpha consume or not familiar with red pill content very much at all.
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Unknown A
So I think what you're describing about, you know, I'm going to tear you down and build you back up, is something that I would say is very ego syntonic. So that means that it aligns with this person's perception of themselves. So if I think I'm a piece of shit and someone else comes to me and says, you are a piece of shit, I'm going to make you better. That fits with my understanding of the world. So you're absolutely right that this does not cause a challenge of my belief system. It actually resonates with my belief system, which is why it is so effective. Right. So when, when someone I, When I come to you and I say, and you say, hey, my tire is flat, and I say, no, it isn't, that's really hard. But if you come to me and you say, my tire is flat and I say, yes, it is, now we're like starting from the same place, right?
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Unknown A
So. So I think we see this a lot in red pill culture. Like, why is red pill growing? It's because red pill is the only place that validates men's experiences. It's the only validation that they get the rest of the. Everything else. If you, if you go and you complain about anything as a man today, especially you, I at least have some slack because I'm a minority. But if you go and you complain like man, like the patriarchy, you're white, you're privileged.
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Unknown B
Don't worry, we're coming for you. That H1B conversation is getting real big. Okay, you guys are.
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Unknown A
H1B is. H1B is not going to be a conversation for long.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
So, so like, like, I think that this is important where, like ego syntonic. So, so aligning with someone's perception of themselves is a great way to engage people. This is also what we see in political stuff. This is when I'm talking about emotional resonance is what I mean. So when, you know, when you, when you, when you're trying to talk about the Inflation Reduction act and you're saying, when you look at, I think people in America have it rough, don't get me wrong, but the rest of the world, I think we handled inflation objectively way better than many other parts of the world. If you travel right now in the United States, the dollar is strong. So we Actually did a decent job. I don't know if it's great. That's not my area of expertise.
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Unknown B
We did a killer job. God bless Joe Biden. I know what you're saying, though.
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Unknown A
Yeah. Right. So, I mean, I'm just using some very broad strokes. Measures of inflation. The whole world had inflation. We had it less than other people. You know, when I lose a kidney, walking up to me and telling me, hey, that guy lost two, you should be grateful. Doesn't work. Right. So this is the problem, is that even though we're doing better, it doesn't emotionally resonate with people. It's not syntonic with their experience. When we say, you say we did a killer job. When I make $37,000 a year, I go to the grocery store and a carton of eggs is six bucks. Like, that doesn't resonate. That's exactly the problem that. That. Anyway, I won't go.
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Unknown B
So that makes sense. Into the dystonia. Like, as soon as you say something that is dystonic now, the person's fight or flight. Not necessarily fight or flight, but now we've activated the other part of the brain, and now any fact that comes after that's not going to matter because you've already given an experience that doesn't align with their perception of themselves or the world or whatever.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think it's a bit of a simplification, but like. Like a great example of, like, egosyntonic versus ego syntonic is obsessive compulsive disorder versus Obsessive compulsive Personality disorder.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
When everyone says, oh, my God, I'm so OCD because they need their things arranged. That's not ocd. That's obsessive Compulsive Personality disorder. People with OCPD require a rigid amount of organization, which they think is right. They don't think anything's wrong with it.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
People with true OCD understand that a lot of their thoughts are really, really messed up. So they have intrusive thoughts of things that are highly disturbing images of hurting their kids, hurting their parents. I've had patients who will have images of sexually assaulting people in their family. This is what real. Like, it feels wrong to you. So OCD is usually ego dystonic. The person thinks that this is not wrong. Right. Ego syntonic is that the person thinks that this is right.
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Unknown B
I have a friend who had OCPD and we dated for a long time, and she said that was always a really big challenge. Is that for ocpd There Are things around like, like all the scheduling breakdowns and all this stuff where like we would talk a lot about it and she's like, it's hard because it doesn't feel like I'm really doing anything wrong. Like there might be issues around perfectionism, but like internally it actually feels good. But yeah, that's a really challenging. Yeah. Geez.
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Unknown A
So I think when it comes to some of these like political discussions or when we're talking about I'm going to tear you down and build you back up. That's very ego syntonic. Right. So you're a piece of. I feel like a piece of. I'm an incel. I can't get a date. So I want to be torn down. Like, what do I want? I don't want to be this person anymore. I'm tired of being this person. Tear this person down and build me up into something. So it's very egosyntonic. It's meeting people where they're at.
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Unknown C
It validates like the self loathing that they're experiencing.
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Unknown A
Absolutely.
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Unknown C
Is it similar then to like fundamental religion? Like a lot of fundamentalist religion, which is like what I grew up in mostly spends a lot of time tearing you down all the time. Is the people that are drawn to that then typically also going to be more self loathing.
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Unknown A
So, you know, I don't know is the short answer like so like. Because I just haven't looked at the data on that. But I think that one of two things will happen. One is that there are absolutely people who resonate with that. But then also oftentimes in fundamentalist religion, there, there is a, like a causative effect. Right. So when you grow up in a fundamentalist religion, you will be you, you, you will be potentially even traumatized. I've worked with people who've been in like cults and stuff like that. Right. So then they create that self loathing which then becomes egos and tonic.
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Unknown C
Do you think that the red pill does anything to kind of build similarly? Like not only are they resonating with young men who are feeling like lost and they feel like losers. Right. And this is validating that. Is the red pill also doing something in that? It's like validating that and growing it in the way that like fundamentalism might like kind of reinforce you over and over, like, no, you are trash.
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Unknown A
Well, so I think, I think it's doing both. So remember that red pill is not homogenous. Right. So I think that I've been stunned by, I've been watching like the red pill community for like 20 years. And, you know, back when I was like a freshman in college, I struggled with dating a lot. So, like, I had friends who were super into the pickup artist scene, which I think was like the original form of red pill. Yeah. And then. And then, you know, then it turned into red pill. And now, like, red pill is actually, like, pretty positive. Like, there are a lot of red pill spaces that are incredibly positive. So the. The most advocacy that I've seen for men to go into therapy is actually in red pill spaces. So if you go to other, like, more liberal spaces on the Internet, it's like, men are unsalvageable.
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Unknown A
They're trash. They're to be blamed for the patriarchy. Whereas, like, you know, if you go to some red pill spaces and someone's like, I just got dumped by a girl, I asked her out twice, she didn't go. And people will be like, you know, get your ass to the gym. Like, go to therapy. Like, go take care. Like, build something of yourself. Right. So they'll actually offer a lot of, like, positive direction.
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Unknown C
Why doesn't the liberal trash talking of men resonate in the way that the red pill trash talking of men does? Like, why when liberals say men are suck patriarchy, that seems to be very aversive to young men. But then when Andrew Tate says you're a loser, you're weak, that does resonate with him. Is it just because it's. Yeah, I guess I'll just leave that question.
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Unknown A
So it's a brilliant question. I've never really thought about it before, but the first thing that comes to mind is that. So I think a big problem with sort of the way that, like, a lot of men are treated is that we're held responsible for something that was not ours to create. Like, the patriarchy is a great example. Like, you can talk about the patriarchy. We tend to be blamed for things that we didn't do. So there's a big difference between me as a man and blamed for sexual assault in the world. Like, that is a completely unactionable claim to lay at my feet. Right. I have. I don't. Maybe I'm responsible for it, but I don't think I am. So that there's a lot of like. So that energy of blaming men doesn't come from, like, a masculine place. Right. Oftentimes it comes from a feminine place.
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Unknown A
So it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just like it's coming from a very different place. Whereas the other thing is that there's not. It's not clear what the action is. Whereas, like, oftentimes, so men are raised to be, like, very independent. Right. Like, so the one thing that's one of the reasons we have a male mental health crisis is because we're really the one class of people who society doesn't care to help. So, and speaking of, you know, what happened in this election, it's really interesting because if you look at the Democratic Party's website, I don't know if y'all have ever seen who they want to help. So they're like. They'll list like, 12 or 13 groups of people, rural people, LGBTQ people, you know, people of different ethnicities. And then at the very end, they say women, but there's no men.
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Unknown B
It's very frustrating that liberals and progressives have all of the theoretical, academic framework and all the understanding for describing these types of issues, but for some reason, especially when it comes to white men, they cannot apply it at all. Or they don't. Or it's a political thing. The act. Funny enough to go back to that conversation with O'Malley, I asked him a question of, do you think that the Democratic Party is going to increase their messaging when it comes to especially, like, young. Like, young white men like their issues? And he did this thing that I remember people would do in the past to women where if a woman were to say something like, women have this issue be like, what about male suicidality? Okay, well, women have this issue. Well, what about false accusations? And it's like. Like, if you're a woman, you can't complain, you know, 10, 15 years ago about anything without a guy saying, like, well, what about my issues?
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Unknown B
And it was funny because when I asked him that question, like, what about young white men? He was and great guy, really cool. And he spoke a little bit later about this, but he said, we don't want to help just young white men. We want to help everybody. And it was that, like, well, me, the delegitimizing. I was like, this is the same thing that people will do sometimes to minorities. Yeah. Like, African Americans will complain. So everybody has poverty.
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Unknown A
Yeah. Right. So black lives matter. All lives matter.
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Unknown B
Yeah, exactly.
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Unknown A
Yes.
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Unknown B
But all lives matter is okay in response to any majority group. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So I think the really interesting thing is that, you know, if you go far enough into wokeness, you will discover systemic bias against men.
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Unknown B
Yeah. Which is.
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Unknown A
Right. So there is. There is a certain amount of wokeness where people stay asleep and very intentionally so.
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Unknown B
You think intentionally so what do you mean? Okay, yeah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, because. Because if I, if I had a person in a room and then a black person comes in and somebody's like, I'm very uncomfortable, it's over. And it's like, why are you uncomfortable? Well, I had somebody robbed. For me, it's like, you're being racist. Your system systemic inequities is horrible. You know, this is the worst in the world. But if a woman's in a room and a man comes in and was like, I'm not very comfortable right now. And it's like, what do you mean? Why not? I was sexually assaulted once. And then there's all this stuff like, oh, okay, this guy needs to leave. And it's like, wait, what? There's a totally different treatment from a lot. Yeah, from. And from the exact same paradigms you would imagine. Analyze it somewhat similarly. But yeah, there's no space carved out.
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Unknown A
Yeah, so. So I think it's like, I think something probably, probably is hopefully going to happen, like if we're, if we're lucky and things move in the right direction, something like what happened with feminism in the 60s should happen with men now, where like, there needs to be. Because I think this is really unfortunate, but, you know, I spend a lot of time in male mental health spaces and it's like pretty bad cesspools. Like, no one's talking about organizing or doing anything about them. You know, it's just really venting spaces, which I think is a huge problem. And then there was one other thought that I had. Yeah, I blanked.
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Unknown B
But on the one answer, possibly to Kyla's question too, for the. Why is it that when liberals tear down men, they don't resonate with it the same way that when the, like the red pillars, like Andrew Tate does? I think a lot of that reason is because when liberals do the tear down, what comes afterwards is not something that I think intuitively any of the men really want. But when Andrew Tate and them do the tear downs, what comes afterwards is intuitively what the men want. So when a liberal tears down a guy, it's like all the things that they're saying you're bad for are for. A lot of these guys are things that there's versions of them that they aspire to. Right. Maybe you're attacking their toxic masculinity, but they viewed it as an attack on all masculinity. And there are some masculine things they want and he feels like this guy that's turning me down doesn't Want me to grow in any masculine way.
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Unknown B
But when Andrew Tate tears you down, it has to do with your lack of masculinity. And then that path forward is very empowering. Probably just feel very empowering. And the liberal path forward as a man.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. So I think you said earlier, you know, like, people don't offer solutions, but I think that's one thing that red pill actually offers a lot. So they meet you where you're at and they offer solutions to get better. Right. So what's the solution? If I'm responsible for sexual assault across the globe because I have a penis, what do I do about that? And I think this is where you also see something that I've seen in a very, very, you know, disturbing way as a clinician. So it's going to sound so bad. So, you know, sometimes I'll work with people who are addicted to substances or behaviors, and oftentimes what happens is there's so much trauma around that addiction, especially with their loved ones, that, you know, when someone, let's say, doesn't. Doesn't come home on time or maybe oversleeps or whatever, there's an automatic judgment of, okay, like you're using again, which is like, fair enough.
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Unknown A
From that. That person's perspective, that's been their experience. Fair enough. But then there's a really tricky thing that happens. I think one of the hardest things as an addict is this period of time where you are doing the right thing, but people don't trust you. And so you're paying, you're doing the time without having commit the crime. And so then at some point, if you really stop and think about it, if I'm paying the price for this behavior anyway, might as well do it. Might as well do it. And I think this is something that is, like, so unsayable, but, like, this is also why I think a lot of the red people move in the direction that they do, is that I'm getting judged for being an asshole anyway. Why would I be a nice guy and get shit on and be blamed for sexual assault?
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Unknown A
Like, if I'm doing the time, I might as well do some of the crime. I'm not advocating for sexual assault. I think even in the red pill spaces. Yeah, that's not what they're talking about. But they're like, if you're going to treat me like an asshole, I'll just be an asshole. And at least I'll get the benefits of being an asshole. Right? So I think that there's a lot of stuff here where we're sort of like, society is creating the system. And I think, you know, I don't quote the man often, but I think one thing that I really liked about Jordan Peterson is when Donald Trump won in 2016, there's a great interview between him and, I think, on in Bill Maher, where everyone's talking about how, like, conservatives are so stupid, and Jordan Peterson is like, that's fine. You guys can think that.
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Unknown A
But, like, what are you going to do about them? Like, they're here. They just elected this guy. They're not going anywhere. What's your plan to engage or deal with these people? And they just kind of laughed it off. And I think we see the effects of that in this election, where I think, if you. I'm sure you guys have looked at this, but if you look at demographic voting data, you know, everyone was really, really convinced that with overturning Roe v. Wade, like, women would show up in force and, like, you know, elect Kamala Harris. But the biggest shift, actually, I think we've seen in young people voting is actually young men used to vote predominantly liberal, and now they've crossed the midline and are voting conservative. And we're seeing that movement not just in the United States. I mean, we see this with, like, 4B in South Korea, if y'all are familiar with what's going on there.
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Unknown A
Right. So there's, like, this kind of male advocacy is happening all over the world.
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Unknown C
I had a thought while you were describing the addiction, doing the crime without doing the time thing specifically. It's kind of unrelated, but do you think that's why a lot of people are more successful in staying recovered if they move cities? Do you think, obviously there's, like, less of the triggers, but is. Do you think part of it is that they get a new social network that just isn't making them pay the time?
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Unknown A
Absolutely. So, I mean, the short answer is absolutely.
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Unknown B
So.
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Unknown A
So I think we know a lot like. Like you alluded to. So triggers are important. Cues are important. You know, the friends that you. There's a great paper. I forget who it's by, but there's a great, like, sort of narrative review by an addiction medicine person. I'm blanking on the name, but, you know, he kind of talks about how, like, you basically can't maintain your same friend group and be in recovery. So oftentimes moving locations is, like, really, really important for finding a new friend group, being able to reinvent yourself. It's really interesting. There's a great paper on quarter life crises where One of the key things about a quarter life crisis is actually getting. So in order to successfully navigate a quarter life crisis, you need either mental or physical distance from your existing life. So there's something very, very like environment, body, brain, mind connection, where if you're in the same space, and this is the biggest challenge that we run into is that, you know, I think the people that we try to help fundamentally are in the same space.
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Unknown A
And that changes so much, like in terms of what your sensory inputs are, what kind of thoughts get triggered, what your cues are. So I think changing locations is like really, really important. I mean when I went through my quarter early life crisis, I went to India and spent like three months in an ashram. And that physical space is like really, really important for like reinventing yourself, rethinking being away from all this like kind of indoctrinating influence, being away from all the judgment. So I completely agree.
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Unknown C
And then when we're talking more about like the young men, the doing the crime, during the time when I think a lot about pro, like fulfilling prophecies, both self fulfilling prophecies, but in this way we're actually talking about kind of societal fulfilling prophecies, right? Where in many ways we're punishing young men for sins that their ancestors did. And so they're, they're, we're kind of giving this prophecy of like young men, you know, you're bad, all you want is sex, you don't care about women. And so they kind of become that thing. And you see that systemically with a lot of different, fundamentally like kind of oppressed, stigmatized groups as you have a view of them as very negative and they tend to consistently like reinforce that prophecy. And so I guess how do you, how do you as a society break, break that cycle? It's very ouroboros in that in nature.
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Unknown C
So how do you, how do you break the chain? How do you get out of that societally?
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Unknown A
Yeah, so I, I think, you know, I, I can imagine that a lot of people who are listening to this will be upset by a lot of the things that we're saying. So I think one of the things that you really have to think about and you're not wrong to be upset. I think one of the things you have to think about is like, what's your goal? Right? So if you want to fix a problem. So I think when it comes to sort of fixing this problem, I've encountered a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, a lot of like, they don't deserve it. I Deserve this. There's just a lot of that kind of energy that then encounter, which I don't think is necessarily wrong. Like, you know, one out of three women will be sexually assaulted over the course of their life and most likely by a man.
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Unknown A
So that's like. That's a staggering number, right? Like 33%. It's crazy. So I think that there's a lot of understandable anger and frustration at the same time. I think the main question is, you know, if you really do want to fix this, what are you willing to do to fix it? Because as long as we keep on ostracizing men, like, this is something that I hear a lot, which is like, you know, it's not my responsibility to teach this dude how to communicate their feelings or whatever, which is fair enough. It's not your responsibility. But then whose is it?
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Unknown B
If you're in public advocacy, it is. I get very frustrated when people say that. Where people say, well, this isn't my job to figure this out. It's like, okay, well, then don't message on it, because it is incredibly frustrating and difficult especially. And I. And I give this perspective. My audience. I can argue about minority issues, transgender, because I'm not personally affected by it. So I can be dispassionate. I'm not. Like, it's a privilege that I have that I don't have to be as, like, close to it emotionally. If somebody who's closer to it emotionally can argue it, then I think that's amazing. But if you're so compromised by the position that you find that you're making arguments that aren't in service to the goal that you have of getting people in a certain area, then maybe don't talk about it. It's okay. Not everybody has to be an advocate for a particular thing or not every has to be a public messaging for a particular thing.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
So I think, you know, I would even take it one step further, where I think you don't have to be a public. You don't have to have a public platform or be an advocate to be responsible. I think fundamentally, I think the basic problem. And I don't say this like, as a factual truth, but so who is going to take the responsibility? Yeah, right. And if individuals are not willing to take the responsibility, then how do you explain. Expect the system to change? So what I tend to find. And this is sort of. You talked about public Persona. So I felt internally like I took responsibility before I became a public Persona. So becoming publicly speaking was the result of taking Responsibility for this issue. I'm going to try to help these people. And I think that, like, basically, how do we fix this? I think we have to have.
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Unknown A
So if people don't, like, I'm not saying Andrew Tate is good or bad, you know, whatever, but if people don't like this red pill rabbit hole, then you need to engage in that conversation, right? You need to be a space. And I think that's one thing that our community, like our mods, have done a fantastic job of. Where we had this period of time, maybe about two, two and a half years ago, we were growing a lot. And so we basically became like this refuge for incels. So we got started getting a lot of incels coming into our community. A lot of red pillars, a lot, lot of black pillars, and there were a lot of women. So we did a lot of interviews with, like, female streamers and things like that. And so this was, like, one place where, like, echo chambers collided. And it was really challenging for a while.
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Unknown A
But then it became like, something beautiful happened where, you know, they came up with a couple of really awesome rules, one of which was like, don't generalize. So if you say women are like this, men are like this, whatever post is going to be removed, you're welcome to say, every single woman I've worked with has treated me this way. Fair enough. Every single man that I've dated has treated me this way completely. Fine. But no generalizations. And something beautiful happened when we sort of, like, pushed that. It was really contentious for a while, is that we started having, like, these posts. I still remember someone was like, I'm a conventionally attractive woman who can get laid whenever I want to, and I feel incredibly lonely. This my experience. And it was amazing to have a woman who was, like, probably in her mid-20s, like, share this experience.
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Unknown A
And then like, incels in our community being like, wow, this sounds so incredibly hard. Like, this sounds exactly like me. Like, I never thought, Like, I thought that your life would have been completely different. So I think it is doable. We just need, like, dialogue, right? We need some way to be able to engage with each other and, like, understand someone else's perspective.
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Unknown B
I think it also, I think one of the big challenges I say on the left, but it happens in the right too, depending what you're talking about, is I think it's. I think I feel like it's immediately obvious or an intuitive when somebody's coming from a place of compassion and problem solving versus coming from a more punitive place. And a lot of the times it feels like the criticisms are more just punitive in nature rather than like the patriarchy. We need to build a world where men and women can work together in a healthier way. It's like the patriarchy, men are evil men and like that's it. And it's like, okay, well there's not much to engage with there. And then anytime I think I'm very critical of the left because I'm on the left, left on is that like when you abandon a certain conversation and then you have all these like weird inbuilt mechanisms to ensure you never have those conversations around responsible platforming or whatever else.
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Unknown B
Now that you found a way to totally never have the conversation or talk to other people that are having the conversation, well, now you've seated the ground completely to the people on the other side. And now no one is having that conversation that would otherwise be more responsible, I guess, or at least more in alignment with your goals as part of the conversation.
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Unknown C
But the way you have that conversation also matters, right? Because it's like what I know, like what's interesting about the story that you're sharing there is, is that it's, it's not just that you created a space for the conversation to happen. Because I think about like there's a lot of liberals, left leaning people that are willing to talk to Republicans, but the nature of the conversation is typically going to be really caustic and I don't see, I don't see any understanding ever occurring between the two sides. Whereas you guys made a couple of rules so that the conversations could happen, but there were a couple of rules of, of basically engagement required so that the conversation could have some chance of fruitfulness, essentially. Can you see that being applied at like, like, is there a way? Because right now I feel like the, when the left and right talk with one another, it's just like hatred going like back and forth.
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Unknown C
And I understand, like, I understand why liberals are really, really frustrated with people who voted for somebody that they believe is like horrible, right? And they don't understand how you could possibly vote for that. And then on the other side you've got conservative people who are like, I can't understand how you would ever go with just another institutional Democrat, like, look at what they've done to us, right? That's typically the both, both sides that I hear. I, how do you, how do you get these two sides to bridge and like see each other?
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Unknown A
So I know this is going to sound crazy, but I think it's like way easier People think it is. I think it starts by not talking and listening, basically. Right. So the basic problem is that, you know, both sides are screaming into the void because no one's listening. Like, if you listen to someone, eventually they'll stop talking. What happens right now is that everyone is so interested in advocating for their own view, so interested in convincing people, so interested in changing people's minds, or they're just so angry and frustrating, frustrated, that that needs some kind of ventilation, that you never get to the listening. So I think the most important thing, if we want healthy dialogue between the left and the right, is to shut the up and listen.
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Unknown C
How do you counter that with. Because the previous thing that we were talking about that I thought was really interesting, I hadn't heard before, was meeting clients at the energy level that they're at. So, like, if you're talking to a Republican who's shouting at you, like, the initial response is, maybe meet them at that interview. You both shout at each other and then come down. But now we're saying, like, listen to them. So how do you. I think both are valid strategies, but how do you know which. Which one to employ?
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Unknown A
So, great question. So I think two things. One is that, you know, meeting someone emotionally energetically, where they're at, if someone is shouting at me, then I think it's fine to start by shouting. And then as you verbally tone it down, they will tone it down too. But oftentimes with political discussions, they're not shouting at you. They are shouting at something that you represent. Right? So when they're shouting at something that you represent, I don't think you really need to match their energy that much. I think you can just. So we do this with, like, psychosis, where, like, so when I was, you know, working on the inpatient psychotic unit, like, I gotta just think about how to say this. So one. One of the best pieces of advice that I got is always show your hands. So this is like something really weird. But, like, when someone is psychotic, right?
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Unknown A
The paranoid parts of their brain are hyperactive, so they don't see your hands. They think that their mind can fill in the gaps with something negative with their own preconceived notion. So this is something that I think is so misunderstood in the world today, this yogic concept of something called glishta. So if you really technically look at the world that you see, the world that you see is not real at all. Like, by definition, it is not real. So your brain constructs the world that you see. What if you look at the Internet today, one of the biggest problems that you have, like, why do you have all this ineffective conversation going on on Twitter or X or whatever, is because when. When I. When I post, let's say, like, a tweet, when someone responds to my tweet, they're not responding to the tweet. They're responding to all of the assumptions around the tweet.
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Unknown A
Does that kind of make sense? So they bring a lot of coloring to the table. So this is the Sanskrit word glishta, which means coloring. We did a fantastic lecture over on the membership side where we, like, talked about this, like, more esoteric concept. And I think it was, like, quite revolutionary for a lot of people to realize that most of what you see in the world is what you color it with. It's not actually what it is. And if we look at political discussion, kind of like what we're saying is that, you know, when people are speaking, they're not. I'm not listening to this person. I'm adding my projection of what a liberal is onto Destiny. And that's what I'm arguing against. That's what I'm angry at, Right? So it's an immense amount of projection, an immense amount of coloring. And then the problem is that if Destiny is sitting there receiving this and he tries to respond to it, it will never work because you're not actually responding to a representation of reality.
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Unknown A
You're responding to a projection in someone's head. And we see this a lot also in, like, couples counseling and stuff where, like, you know, if you're. If there's a partner who has had a trauma from being cheated on and they are really paranoid about you and you're in that relationship, there's no way to win because you're not actually dealing with reality. They're not judging you based on your actions. They're judging you based on the coloring in their head. So there's no way to win that. So, interestingly enough, I think one of the biggest things that we can do in response to this is to first of all, acknowledge, understand that they're not mad at me. They're mad at some representation that they attach to me. And the reason I mentioned the psychosis thing. So how do you get around that? The way that you get around that is by giving them less to fill in.
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Unknown A
So when I show my hands, that removes some amount of, like, projection space, does that kind of make sense? Like, if my hands are behind my back, I could be holding a weapon, but if they can see them, there's no way I can hold a weapon. So oftentimes what we want to do when we're engaging in conversations with people who are politically charged is just listening. Offer a lot of neutrality, right? And don't like slip into the standard talking points. Don't slip into the standard words. Don't use the word woke. Because the second you use the word woke, everyone gets triggered. And it means completely different things to complete to different people. So like really sort of offering a lot of like neutral stimulation. And the more neutral stimulation you have, you'll see this. If y'all watch some of our, you know, interviews with people, people who are more conservative, let's say, the more neutral stimulation you have, the less that they will project upon you.
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Unknown A
Then something cool happens. Is right now let's say destiny's over here and then here's the left, right? So destiny is a part of the left. And then as destiny separates from the left, all of the close mindedness is directed over here, not to destiny. But since I'm associating these two things in my mind, my capacity to listen to him will go way down. So once you sort of be neutral, you spend some time listening, you really try to understand, you will be separated out. And once you become separated out, then their capacity to form a new relationship with you, be open minded with you is completely different. And I see this all the time. I mean, this is what we do in addiction psychiatry. People will come in and be very like, anti medication. I don't want to take an ssri or they'll be very pro medication.
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Unknown A
All that ever helps me is Adderall. And so they're attaching a lot of stuff to that which you need to separate yourself from and then you can have a productive conversation. I know it's a long winded answer, but.
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Unknown B
No, that's okay. You just explained a lot of things that I've also come to understand. But I consider these negatives. So I'm curious. Do you? Okay, two things. So one, on the thing that you just said. Yeah, the negative thing.
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Unknown A
What does that mean?
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Unknown B
One issue that I would have is I would notice that when I go on shows, if I'm trying to reach out to the other side, I'm spending a considerable, a considerable amount of time separating myself from the conceptions that they have of people who are progressive or liberal. Right? What? Yeah.
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Unknown A
No.
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Unknown B
What's funny? Laugh. What do you think? Yeah.
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Unknown A
I mean, what? Maybe laughs There is like. I mean, the hand you are dealt there is such trash.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
So.
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Unknown A
So I so like, I think when you're going on a show, the whole reason they want you there is to be a representation of this.
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Unknown B
I was literally the blue haired liberal guy on red pill shows.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown B
Which is fine, but I can work in that environment. But the issue is that individually I can navigate it because I'm a master conversationalist and I'm very funny everything else. Right.
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Unknown A
But I.
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Unknown B
So I can navigate it. But what I found after a while was my goal isn't. I'm not here to try to necessarily just get fans or get people to like me. I think that the ideology that I represent I think is better than this ideology. Right. That's why I'm in politics. I'm trying to push my political agenda. But there's a weird thing happening where it's funny because your description is literally almost verbatim the description that I've given on stream for why I've had doubts or questions about like what political alignment. Not alignment, but direction I should be taking is that what happened is okay, I come on a show, I know the woke screaming libertards and all these guys. I'm not like that. I'm this, I'm the cooler guy. I can do this. And you know, and what happens is I do have the conversations and then the feelings and everything that they have of me are incredibly positive.
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Unknown B
And that's good for me and it's good for them. But I'm not making any progress with these guys here in that like. Well, here I'm not just here to tell you that I'm like a really cool, smart individual. What I'm here is I'm actually trying to sell you this package of like liberal ideas or whatever. But because I've done so much work to separate myself from all of that, I've almost become like, it almost feels it's not the same thing, but almost like a tokenization or Uncle Thomas of like, yeah, like I'm like, yeah, I'm not like a loser like these guys. So I guess the question is I can, I can see some worlds where this is good for addiction stuff and everything else. Where you're trying to like make progress with a patient and like a measurable achievable way, but where I'm trying to get you to come over to all the people that you have these weird ideas of.
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Unknown B
How do you view that? I guess, does that make sense?
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Unknown A
Yeah. Yeah. So. So how do you know that you're not changing their perception of the libtard?
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Unknown B
Because I, because I a lot of the comments will be things along the lines of like, destiny's cool, he's the only one that does this, and he's not like any of the other ones. And I feel like that I get that comment a lot.
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Unknown A
Okay, I'll ask again.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
How do you know that you're not changing their perception of that?
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Unknown B
Because we lost the goddamn election. You're right. There's one way, and I haven't done it yet. Your question is, how do I know that even to the people that are making those comments, that I'm not making them feel slightly more amenable to liberal ideas, basically? Right. Is that kind of what you're asking me?
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Unknown A
No, I'm sure that's a good interpretation of the question. But how. So you're saying that. Okay, so there's the libtards. Is that okay to say, by the way? Is that offensive?
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Unknown B
I can say anything. I am racist and hateful, so I don't know about you.
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Unknown A
I'm just.
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Unknown B
I'm sorry.
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Unknown A
So there's the liberals.
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Unknown B
Some people say libtard is ableist language. Okay, so whatever. Yeah, liberals.
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Unknown A
So there's the liberals. And then. So here I am advocating for separating yourself from liberals. Right.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
And then now what happens is they're engaging with you in a positive way, but they don't engage with this in a positive way. So how do you know they're not engaging with this in a more positive way?
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Unknown B
That's a very hard thing to measure.
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Unknown A
Absolutely.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
You're damn right it is. That's why I ask.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
So I had a conversation with a friend 2 weeks ago actually, about this, and one of the things that I need to do, I'm probably gonna do it on stream today. And I wish I would've done it before this conversation is I actually wanted to do a big survey of my audience to find out, am I finding people politically. Like, you've been on the Internet, you come across my stuff and you're like, oh, I like this guy. Is that like 90% of my audience or is 90% of my audience. I was very conservative, and then I listened to you once, and now I'm actually your fan. You've changed me, and I don't know the answer to that question. I think it's a pretty important one.
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Unknown A
Yeah, so. So I think this is where, like, I don't know. I mean, I would sort of take a step back and rethink this. Right. But this is my perspective. This is where I'm coming from. This is how I Think about things. Right? So I'm a clinician at heart. Like, I tend to work on individuals, so I have some luxuries that I think you don't have some restrictions to. But so the first thing that I would say is this is true for everybody. Like, one thing that I've learned as a psychiatrist is that the amount of change that happens under the surface is enormous. The majority of change happens under the surface. So, you know, you can look at these comments, but just because someone says that, first of all, there's a selection bias for people who will comment. What percentage of people, you know, like, if you have a video, what percentage of views end up.
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Unknown A
What percentage of people who watch the video end up commenting on it? What do you think?
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Unknown B
I think it's anywhere from 0.1 to 1%, depending on the video.
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Unknown A
Right. So, like, already your first answer was, well, they comment this. Well, you're looking at the 1% instead of the other 99%. Right. At a minimum. So that's bad. Furthermore, the more angry someone gets, the more likely they are to comment. So comment is actually selecting for the minority of people who dig their heels in against you. And it's 1% by your admission.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
So I think you're creating a lot more change than you realize. And you learn this as. As a psychiatrist. Like, you know, you're working with these people. They don't seem to change. They don't seem to change. One, they don't seem to change, and then one day they wake up and they're different. Like when I work with someone with an addiction, they relapse, they relapse, they relapse. And then one day they wake up, and that is the last drink they will have for 28 years. But you don't always see that change coming. So I think you're doing a lot more. You're being a lot more effective than you realize. And even if people say you're the only one that's different, that's a. That's huge because it used to be binary, and now it's not binary. And if there's one person, you know, the first person who circumnavigated the globe, showed that it could be done.
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Unknown A
They're the ones who are blazing the trail for everybody else. So I think there's an immense amount of impact. Then there are other concerns. Like, I see you want to say something, but.
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Unknown B
Yeah. Are there two quick things? I guess, yeah. So one. So one quick thing is that I don't know if there is a psychological phenomenon Happening where I'm trying to engender warm feelings about an ideology. And the only way they have warm feelings for me is to totally separate me from that ideology. So rather than. So in their mind, they might say the words, well, Destiny's at least, like, the least crazy liberal. They might code me as. These are the liberals. Destiny's not a liberal. He's something different. So they don't even have those warm feelings. And then the second thing is to go with the therapist analogy, I'm curious. Let's say that you were doing a couple's counseling for somebody, and you found that for some reason, obviously, you never do this. The camera in the home. And you can see every single thing they say, and you see that every time you have a couple session, when the couple goes home, one side is consistently weaponizing every single thing you say.
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Unknown B
Would you change your approach, or would you just continue with the approach and hope that eventually they would stop doing that? Or how does it. Because then my fear is the. When I do give takes that are critical of the right, they're largely ignored. But then when I'm giving takes that are critical of the left, to separate myself from the left, they're amplified like crazy. And then I just become, like, a convenient platform to. Oh, Destiny, he's based. He knew that all the liberals were crazy and stupid when it came to Rittenhouse. But Destiny's really crazy on trans stuff. He's totally wrong there. And I was like, well, you're only taking the worst parts of me where I'm trying to, like, build a bridge. And now you're just weaponizing what I'm saying in the form of, like, short form content and bad faith actors. And now I feel like I was damaging my side.
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Unknown B
I'm not even making much progress. Yeah, these are general thoughts. Go ahead.
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Unknown A
Yeah, so, I mean, I think there's a lot of good stuff there. So the first is that I would probably not change if what I said was being weaponized. And also that happens all the time in couples counseling. So, like, we know that what I say is going to be weaponized, right? So, like, someone is going to use me as the voice of authority, selectively interpret what I say, and then bludgeon the other person. Well, the good news is that when they do that at home, the next time they come into the office, usually you're able to suss that out, right? So, like, when that gets done consistently, someone else will come in and they'll say, like, oh, like, you know, I told him just like, you said and. Or they'll say something like, yeah, like, you know, you're on their side. And I'll be like, oh, like, help me understand why you think I'm on their side.
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Unknown A
Well, you said this, this, and this. And she, you know, like, whatever. Like, so that comes up. So it works. I think this is where, like, your challenge is way harder than mine. I mean, I think I'm way more hands off than. Than you are where, like, you know. So there are a couple of other things that I'd say to you, though, is that I think your timescale can be readjusted. So you're talking about this stuff, but, like, over the aggregate, like, think for a second. Right. So over the aggregate, you've been making political comment content on the Internet for how many years?
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Unknown B
Probably eight years. Yeah.
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Unknown A
And what do you think the aggregate effect of you being on the Internet has been?
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Unknown B
Hopefully pushing more people in my direction or just finding people that are already.
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Unknown A
Do you think that's true?
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Unknown B
I'm not sure I need to do that survey. I really don't.
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Unknown A
What's your instinct?
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Unknown B
My intuition is that I think I have moved people. Yes, yes.
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Unknown A
I think you're right. Right. So. And I think that that's what. So the other thing you've got to look at is, like, not one video. And sure, people will weaponize what you say to. But you're not. You're not working on the people who weaponize what you say. You're working on the silent majority. This is another big problem with the Internet. A lot of people don't realize. I mean, we do when we look at these numbers, right? Critics, people who weaponize what you say. Those are actually the minority. The vast majority of people are kind of just living their lives, hear a little bit of what you say. You'll move them a little bit over time, right. So there's like, they'll start weaponizing you there. But, like, I think the person who is not really listening to what you're saying, because if someone does that and clips and ships what you say, they've completely lost the essence of what you offer.
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Unknown A
That is not what your quintessential community is. Right. So, like, the values that you represent are not clipping and shipping. They're. Let's be nuanced, let's be thorough, let's be critical. And I think even if there are randos who are clipping and shipping, that can be good too, because it gets clipped and shipped. Someone looks at this guy, oh, yeah, I want to watch this Base liberal who trashes the other liberals. They're going to watch you a little bit more, and hopefully they will internalize your thought process, which I think you're having that effect. So I think it's kind of like getting way too caught up in. Content creators do this all the time where we get. We get super caught up in, like, the wrong data just because that data is the most accessible.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
There's no randomized controlled trial that is selecting for bias and removing sources of bias for information on the Internet. In fact, the opposite is happening. We get an amplification of bias because of the emotional engagement. So when we clip and ship a liberal bashing a liberal, that's going to. As Terry Pratchett says, a lie can make its way all around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. That's what we see on the Internet today, is the worst things spread the fastest.
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Unknown B
I guess the challenge is figuring out, because I know that in ways, things that I do are harmful to people on the left. But it's trying to balance out because I. I can have a good intuition that I know that there are people that I've moved, and I can have a good intuition knowing that there are probably people on my side that I've harmed, like, ideologically or whatever. But if you were to ask me to intuit which one do you think is greater? That's a very challenging question. I don't have an intuitive answer to that. I guess it's very difficult to figure out. Yeah.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think if. I mean, I am inferring what I believe the spirit of your mission is, and if you are. If there are people who are saying he's the only liberal worth listening to, I think that's checking that box. Right. So. So you may want more. It may feel insufficient. It's hard to get that positive feedback. I don't know, like, what your experience is like, but, you know, I sometimes get a lot of positive feedback, but it's not like on the Internet. Like, people will, like, see me on the street and stuff. So I think if there's one liberal that's worth listening to, that's actually the most important step for most people. Right. And you don't have to do all of this on your own. Like, so I think there's just a different. And this may be like, a little bit more personal and spiritual, but I think it has to do with the way that you view yourself, the way that you view your role in life, your dharma, your duty, the way that you View Karma.
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Unknown A
Karma. So like, you know, I think you're one human being. You're, you know, just, just one human being.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
And, and like what really can you accomplish? The simple truth is not much. Right. What do I accomplish? The simple truth is not much. People may say I do a lot and you can make that argument for sure. But we're just like one human being. And so I'd say that if, you know, in my book, like if I end up helping two people or actually not two people, if I end up helping more than about maybe about 600 people, then that's a win in my book, if I hit 601, I'm happy with that. And I just make a simple comparison to if I was just doing private practice and working as a doctor, I would work with 30 people a year for about 20 years. And if I can outdo that, then that's a win in my book. Not saying that you shouldn't. I mean I try to iterate and I try to do more and more, but no point stressing about it.
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Unknown A
Right. Focus on your process, focus on reaching more people. But I think you're doing good. I think it's effective.
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Unknown B
Okay.
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Unknown A
Right. Because you're, you're like, you think critically and you show them that not all liberals are blinded by wokeness or whatever.
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Unknown B
Yeah, I need to do more data collection. I'll figure it out.
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Unknown A
Sure. Yeah, I think, I mean that would be wise too. Big fan of data collection.
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Unknown B
Do you have any more political questions? Because I can go mental health route.
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Unknown C
I, I actually was about to jump on a bone that I wanted to pick about a statement you made on. It wasn't. Yes, it was a statement he made on CEO, but you can go ahead first.
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Unknown B
If you had something on CEO, on.
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Unknown C
The diary of a CEO, you said something that like blew my mind and then I got confused. I'll just. I was looking through when I was listening to it. I always look through the comments because I want to see like what resonates people. But specifically I look for the top, top comments like thumbs up to go what, what are little ideas that it seems like when people scroll through they go yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that what that comment is saying is totally resonates with me. And the top comment on that video was confidence comes from surviving failure, which is your quote. And that person said that was a gem. And I read that quote first before I listened to the thing and I was like, okay, I hard disagree. So I don't know, like at that point I was like, I Don't know where that comes from.
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Unknown C
And I was like. But I probably just don't understand the context of it. And I got into the context of what you were talking about, and I actually wish that there was more because I think you. You actually said that the quoted statement, confidence comes from surviving failure. And then you kind of went on to talk about imposter syndrome and stuff like that. But I kind of wanted to focus in a little bit more on that because I feel like I don't understand. Understand that. Like, and to give you context, my understanding of confidence is, like, very. It's. It's. I think Peterson talks about this, but it's very kind of evolutionary psyche. Just essentially, confidence often comes from having small successive wins in a certain area.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown C
It's why a lot of, like, some of the best entrepreneurs often come from really small towns, because being a big fish in a small pond builds a lot of confidence. So that when you have to go into a big pond, you already feel like a big fish and you are more willing to risk and, like, put things out there. And so I guess, maybe help me understand what you mean when you say confidence comes from surviving a failure, because I think it can grow, like a depth to a person. But isn't it successes that create confidence?
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Unknown A
What do you think?
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Unknown C
I guess I think. I think I can see how failure can create some level of confidence, particularly, but it's. It's not the failure itself. It's like the failure and then the overcoming of it that creates the confidence. I suppose.
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Unknown A
So would you say that overcoming failure leads to confidence?
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Unknown C
Yep. And wins and just general successes?
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Unknown A
Yeah, so. So I think. I think. Yeah, so I think when I say surviving failure, I sort of mean overcoming. I think those two are in the same ballpark. So. And I think that there's, you know, there's plenty of research that shows that doing well leads to confidence, but. So let me ask you a couple of questions, right? So if I went to, I don't know, South Florida Community College, or I went to Harvard Law School, which place do you think I would encounter more imposter syndrome?
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Unknown C
Probably Harvard, because the standard of performance is so high.
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Unknown A
Very good. So which one of those groups. So would you agree that imposter syndrome is a lack of confidence or overlaps with a lack of confidence? It overlaps for sure, sure. And then would you think that people at Harvard Law School or, you know, Florida Community College, which one of them do you think has more success objectively in their life?
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Unknown C
The Harvard student.
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Unknown A
Right. So. So that's one way to get there now. I mean that's like laid out a trail of breadcrumbs which can be disputed in all different manners of ways.
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Unknown B
The rankings just came out actually. South Community Florida College is actually tier 2 law school right now. So really bad pick there.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
So. So I think that this is, this is where a couple of things. So one is like, you know, I'm a clinician, so when I make statements they're heavily based. Not. I mean I read a lot in terms of like scientific literature and prevalence data and things like that. But I also like work with people. So what I tend to find is that if you really think about it, like what. So here's the way I would explain it. Oh, actually. So you know when you look at a two year old, what makes a two year old confident?
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Unknown B
Right.
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Unknown A
So I don't know exactly what your training was, but like it sounds like you. I know. Can you just fill me in? What, what's your psychological background?
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Unknown C
Yeah, I was addiction counselor. Okay. I did an honors psych undergrad and then I got a psychometric specialization with a graduate diploma.
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Unknown A
Okay. So Attachment theory.
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Unknown C
Yep.
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Unknown A
Okay, so what makes a two year old confident?
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Unknown C
Mostly if you were going from attachment theory lens, their security comes from. Well, their confidence comes from security. Their parental relationship.
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Unknown A
Sure.
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Unknown B
So as a parent, my answer would was immediately lack of experience. These mother do crazy shit that they're just going to kill them. But they don't.
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Unknown A
No, that's right. No, no, hold on. That's correct. Right. So a 2 year old does crazy shit that would get them killed. They are confident. Right. The world is not something to be feared. They can embrace challenging situations. The basis of that is their security. Where does their security come from?
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Unknown C
Mom and dad.
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Unknown A
In what way? So when I fall and I hurt myself, what happens?
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Unknown C
Mom and dad fix it.
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Unknown A
Absolutely. Right. So when I fall, when I fail, failure is nothing to be feared. I can survive failure. I can survive falling down because mom and dad are there. That's the crux of it. Right. So if you look at people who are anxious, the world is a dangerous place. I can't afford to fail. And if I can't afford to fail and I'm anxious, I'm not confident. The people who are confident are the people who can afford to fail. So in my kind of clinical experience, you know, and I think there's plenty of. There's attachment theory, there's imposter syndrome, you know, there's plenty of science that kind of leans into this. So you can also look at things like serotonin. So serotonin. The higher your serotonin level is, the more you perceive, the more effort you are willing to put into tasks. And there's something about the, your effort assessment has something to do with your confidence.
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Unknown A
So actually that's not directly related to failure, but so. So just in my experience, you know, when people are like, really, really anxious, when they lack confidence in themselves, they can't afford to take a chance. And why is that? Why can't they afford to take a chance? Because when they've taken a chance in the past, it has not worked out well for them. Whereas people who survive failure and then are like, okay, like, you know, you know, oftentimes I'll have patients who, the worst thing they imagined, they're. They're coming to my office. Oh, I'm so anxious I'm going to get fired. I'm so anxious I'm going to get fired. One day they get fired. The world is falling apart. Oh, my God, she's gonna dump me. He's gonna dump me. Everything will fall apart. And then when they rebuild from that, they'll be like, okay, like, the worst thing happened and I survived it, and that's okay.
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Unknown A
I don't need to be afraid of this outcome. There's another third bit of kind of general evidence that I'll offer is if we look at trauma, right? So there's two things that can happen. We can wind up with PTSD, or we can wind up with post traumatic growth. And so what's the difference there? So I'm not saying that failure necessarily creates confidence. I don't think failure creates confidence. Surviving failure creates confidence. So that's what separates people out from developing PTSD versus post traumatic growth. So confidence, I think, generally speaking, I think it does come from surviving failure because you can't afford to take risks because your mind is creating all of these scenarios that will be the end, all, be all, but, like, you'll be okay. And when I look at people, when I work with people who are confident, they're the ones who are not afraid to make mistakes.
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Unknown A
They can afford to fail. And how does a human being learn that you can afford to fail by actually experiencing, oh, it wasn't that bad, right?
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Unknown B
A couple of things. It's funny you say some of these things. One of the things I always tell for streamers is like the. One of the most important growth moments that you have as a streamer is when you hit a slump and then overcome it. Because until you've Hit that first slump, it's always in your head, like, holy, if I drip, like, if you were to drop off, like, it's over, I can't do it, or whatever, and it's, you're completely done. But like, if you hit a slump and then you survive and you come back and it's like, okay, you have that template in your mind that you can have adversity and overcome it. Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown A
And I don't think that the stuff that you're saying is wrong by any means. Like, I think if you look at, you know, we also know that, you know, wins build self esteem, but if we're not careful, a lot of wins will build imposter syndrome, where we see this a lot. And this is why, like, you know, the, the, the. I went to Tufts for medical school. I did my residency training at Harvard, and like, the amount of imposter syndrome at Harvard blows Tufts out of the water. And it's really confusing because these people are like, quote unquote, objectively, by whatever standards you measure, those are the better students. Right. Their GPAs are higher, their publications are higher, like, whatever.
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Unknown C
But they have Golden Child sync, of course.
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Unknown A
So that's another. And if we can look at things like narcissism and insecurity. So like, like, you know, for a narcissist, they can't afford a failure. Right? That's the crux of narcissism. They can't afford to be perceived that way. So how do you even treat narcissism? You can hopefully show them that, that which they fear. Oh, this person doesn't like you. This person thinks you're not the hottest stuff since sliced bread. That's okay. And you can survive that. That surviving is what builds confidence. And then we don't say like surviving successes, you know, so, so I think that's, that's what I would kind of say. But I mean, if you want to quote data that small successes lead to self esteem, I wouldn't disagree with that at all.
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Unknown C
Gotcha. So then like an anxiety chaining system, like if you're working on somebody with social anxiety, you'll typically get them to do really, really small stressors first that are low stakes, high reward. Right. So if you're socially anxious, anxious, I'll often like, encourage, like young men who want to talk to girls. I'll be like, smell at the cashier register and ask her how her day's going. Right. Low stakes. She's kind of being paid to be nice to you. She's very unlikely to not say anything nice. And most people aren't going to react negatively to that anyways. And you chain all the way up, and that's essentially allowing them to have risk. And what would you say a key part in chaining is actually for them to also experience, like a setback. Like a cashier register doesn't smile back or is like, fine.
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Unknown A
I think those are the most important things.
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Unknown C
Okay. Yeah.
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Unknown A
Right. So. So, like, you know, we'll see this sometimes in our community. Like, I asked a girl out or I asked a guy out and they said no, and it's okay. That is gonna build your confidence way more than them saying yes. I mean, I know it's weird. Maybe they'll say yes and that'll build your confidence a lot.
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Unknown B
But that was a really important college moment that I had where there was a girl and I was like, mind, for a while, I don't remember what I read. I saw something online and I realized that, like, I should just ask. And then I asked her out and she said no. I was like, okay, well, that's fine. I'm okay. It's not the end of the world. Yeah, right. And that gave me so much more. Because then going forward, obviously.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
If somebody says no, it's okay.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. So. So I think that there are, you know, positive things will absolutely contribute to self esteem. But, like, in my clinical experience. Right. So I think a lot more. And it's funny because I'm a little bit unorthodox when it comes to working with patients. And, you know, there's the kind of CBT approach of small exposures and wins. Fair enough. But then there's also, like, exposure therapy, which is that there is no win. There's just surviving. And, like, we're gonna just take an elevator ride. We're gonna watch an elevator. There's no win. There's no positive feedback. There's just surviving. And exposure therapy is also incredibly effective at, like, you know, social anxiety, claustrophobia, whatever. So I think we have those systems, and that gets a bit technical in terms of which parts of the brain and what's going on, because each of those system, each of those types of therapy target different parts of psychology and neuroscience.
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Unknown C
Yeah. I'm going to ask kind of, it's going to be a vague question, but I feel like I'm teasing onto something. The mental state of going, I'm going to offer somebody cbt or I need that cbt. I need those small, tiny, progressive wins. Feels like a very different type of mentality than let's just dive in and do exposure therapy. Right. How? I guess, how do I. Like, how do we label these as, like, two separate things? Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, these seem like two different thinking orientations.
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Unknown A
Yeah, absolutely.
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Unknown C
And then I guess, how does one determine which orientation is the best fit for them?
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Unknown A
Yeah, so the best fit for them. Who's them?
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Unknown C
The individual listening, the individual thinking.
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Unknown B
Me.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So there isn't a best fit for them. So let's remember that all of those therapeutic interactions have a therapeutic dyad. So you can think that CBT works great for you, but if you have a crappy CBT therapist, it ain't going to be great. Right. So this is also where, as a provider, how do you decide if you want to do CBT or exposure therapy with someone? And that's where I'd say that there's a therapeutic fit which involves therapist and patient and modality. So those are the three things. So, like, I'm not a great CBT therapist in some ways, like, in. But I do a lot of CBT is very similar to, like, Vedic psychology, yogic psychology. So, like, I kind of approach it from that angle. But so I think, you know, if something appeals to you as a patient, if it sounds like, intellectually interesting to you or appeals to you in some way, then I'd say find a good therapist for that and then give it a shot.
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Unknown A
But what we also know is that, generally speaking, like, you can't make or we haven't figured out a good way to make predictions about, like, therapist matching and things like that. So if you look at common factors research, it seems like fit is the most important thing. So when you. When you sit down and work with someone, do you feel like you like them? Do you feel like they get you? Do you feel like, you know, is it basically a positive interaction?
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Unknown C
Gotcha. Do you think that the more unorthodox. I feel like a really common complaint I hear about you specifically is I hear a lot of people say, I can't find a therapist like Dr. K. I'm like, well, he like everything that he's describing. When you say I'm unorthodox, I'm like, I'm not surprised to hear that. Right. Like, CBT is going to be the most traditional route. Do you think that there's, like, something occurring within psychology that is limiting more psychologists and practitioners from feeling free and I guess, like, confident to be more unorthodox and offer that more unique style that it seems like a lot of people are really drawn to the style that you, like, you offer. I think a lot of Peterson, especially when he was describing his clinical style, was also very unorthodox in a lot of ways that people are very drawn to.
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Unknown C
Is there something going on in the field that's like limiting therapists from feeling like they can do this?
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Unknown A
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of problems in the field. So we just started like, you know, a branch that offers education. So we got requests from tons of therapists and stuff who wanted training. So now we offer like, continuing education and video game addiction and things like that. So I think that there's a lot of training deficiencies in therapy. This is. There's a lot to say. So I think the first biggest problem in therapy is that there is no good system of feedback. So if you look at, like, you know, a product on Amazon, how do you know something is good on Amazon? Like, you look at the reviews. So it's interesting because therapy is the one field where, like, for some reason, as a field, we never ask people why they left. And I remember, like, this is maybe a personal experience, but, you know, I was, I was.
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Unknown A
I did the first leg of psychoanalytic training and was just stunned by kind of what I was hearing, like, from a product perspective. And, you know, if a patient doesn't come back, it's like, oh, it's not that you did anything wrong. It's that they weren't ready for the therapy. So there's a lot of, like, unfalsifiable hypotheses that therapists will use to explain. I'm going to call it a bad outcome, like a discontinuation of treatment. I've run into this in a couple of ways. I won't go into details, but I think that as a profession, like, we never call the patient and ask them. Like, it would be actually considered, like, unethical if a patient we. Oh, we're not respecting their boundaries. Right, right. So if they choose not to come back, that's on them. We're never going to talk to them. I'm not going to chase them down.
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Unknown A
That's. Well, our path. Profession says that that's bad. So fair enough. I'm not saying that that is in that that's wrong, but that creates major weakness because how are you ever going to know why that person doesn't come back? And how can you ever fix that problem?
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Unknown B
You mentioned this as a clinician on the research side, you can destroy a study if your attrition rate is. You have 100 patients and they come in and you've got 20 left by the end of the study, and you find out that 80 of them all dropped off from like major groups. Whatever conclusion you have is basically not. It doesn't matter anymore. Now you have to figure out why the attrition was what it was.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. So I think we don't do a good job of like customer feedback in the field of therapy. Like the amount of analytics supervisors that I have, that would just recoil against that concept. And then that's what creates a system of therapy where it's not clear whether the therapist is good or bad. Right. And so as a field, we don't. We'll do like, like large scale studies and say, okay, this intervention works for this thing. Right. So we're good in that way. But we don't, like, as an individual therapist, we don't focus on getting better.
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Unknown C
Well, I was gonna say, even like those large field studies, I don't know if you've been paying attention to any of the meta science. If you actually look at the collected data, it's actually kind of spooky because it's like, yeah, on aggregate, we're doing well, but there's some therapists that have like a 0.25 effect size, which is like, that means most clients are better off just like not coming in.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So placebo will be like 0.3.
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Unknown C
Right, right. And then some therapists in that same data set will have like a 1.25 effect size. Right. They're very, very effective. And we are never pausing as a field to go like, what's the difference here? We should probably, like, we should probably figure this out. Because if you're consistently vastly underperforming your clients, we should know why. And if you're consistently.
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Unknown A
We as a field don't do that.
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Unknown C
I know.
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Unknown A
Right? So. So this is where, like, if you look at how do therapists learn, we'll have things like supervision.
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Unknown B
But like, how do you have supervision?
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Unknown A
Huh?
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Unknown B
I'm sorry, that was so stupid. What? That was just the dumbest dad joke. I'm so sorry. You said you have supervision. Oh, that was so. I'm so sorry. Go ahead.
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Unknown A
So. So. But. And you know, I've seen this where, like, like back when I was teaching, you know, I would have like, some residents that I would work with that would go to supervision and then we'd like talk about, like, so I would run like a wellness thing in the resident. And so people would like, come in with cases and like their supervisor would say certain things to them that were very, very comforting, very validating. But like, I don't know if they really challenged them. Like, you know, like, I think sometimes we're like missing certain things. That could be a selection bias. It could be my perception.
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Unknown B
Would you say they weren't growing because they weren't being challenged enough?
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Unknown A
Yeah, I think they weren't growing because they weren't being challenged enough. Absolutely right. And so I think there's a big deficiency there. So I think a big part of like what we kind of emphasize. So we did this internally in our coaching program where we did something called a positive deviant study where we looked at the bottom quartile of coaches for early cancellation rates. So which coaches have clients that say that for whatever reason don't want to come back and then which, which coaches have the lowest cancellation rates? Then we did a qualitative analysis of our coaches. We did a qualitative analysis of those two sets of coaches and we implemented changes from the top quartile and sort of like tried to teach everyone, share some information about what the top quartile of people do.
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Unknown C
Can I ask what they were doing? If you don't want to share? Like, no.
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Unknown A
I mean, I don't know off the top of my head, but I think a big part of it is like being somewhat directive. So the top quartile of coaches are not like the classic psychotherapist where I'm going to just sit back and just listen to you vent. Vent. It's like they were a little bit more goal focused people. Like they, the top quartile of coaches are more redirective. So they're not directive. This is important. But if a client goes off track, they will bring you back to your stated goal. So that's what the top quartile of coaches will do. The bottom quartile of coaches will let you wander off. So we also have a population that has a lot of ADHD and then like 45 minutes go by. That's not actually what the client wanted to talk about. Right. But, but that, that's where. So some of those practices, like that's just a good example.
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Unknown A
And, and then we've also seen some data which I can't go into detail because there's an NDA, but we've seen outcomes from some of the big box therapy platforms and like our coaching program, based on what we've seen, seen outperforms like therapy in some cases. Right. So we can't. That's not a, that's not a scientifically valid statement that is a. We have all kinds of like, you know, talks with people like the American Psychiatric association, various companies that are offering therapy. In terms of collaborating, can we combine coaching and therapy? And as part of those talks, we'll get data on, like, what their outcomes are. And we're stunned when. When. And. But there's also other. Lots of. Of caveats there. They're working with a clinical population. We're not working with a clinical population. There's all kinds of other things going on there. But. And so I think there's just a very, very poor.
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Unknown A
Like, the product side of therapy is not very well developed.
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Unknown C
Yeah. Have you.
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Unknown B
Sorry, can I give a hot take real quick? I actually have a really hot take on this. I've said this on my stream before, so you can shoot it down or validate me. One of the things I think that humor is really good at, getting people to bond with each other. Because I think when you're humorous, making people laugh is one thing, but to be humorous, there's a lot of subtext that you have to understand, like, what's worth joking about, why is a joke funny? And that you incorporate all of these things into humor. So a person that can make somebody laugh is like demonstrating a lot of social skills. So I had an idea in my head when she asked that question of why I think teachers and therapists and other professions are really successful or the people in those pressures could be successful.
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Unknown B
And then you mentioned the redirective thing. And I'm curious when one of the reasons why I like talking to you has to do with that redirective thing. It's not really the redirective thing, though. It's more that it's very, very, very hard, I feel, to talk to people. And this extends to therapists as well, unfortunately, that it feels like not only does it feel like they understand what you're saying, so they're cutting through, like, a lot of the. Whatever. They understand why you're saying it. And that redirection isn't just them keeping you on track. It's more that, you know, we had a conversation last night where I can just dump, like, this is like all this stuff. And then you're like, well, let me ask you, like, a few questions. And it's obvious in the questions that you're asking that, okay, you're getting to the meat of what I'm saying, and then you can begin to work in that direction.
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Unknown B
And when I would imagine a therapist, that's not redirective, it's Somebody if I'm just talking and talking, I feel like I don't know if anything I'm saying is like making sense to this person and they just want to work on whatever I'm going to say. And I could talk to a wall and do this, but a person who's redirecting is like a more active engagement with my mind. I feel like for a lot of stuff. And I don't know if you think this could be trained or not. I guess I would hope that you would think it can be trained because you have coaches. But I feel like a lot of good therapists and I tell others in the teaching as well, are just people that are very empathetic or mirror or can understand, like, what are you saying? And how can I cut through a lot of the garbage or not garbage, but like the.
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Unknown B
Whatever, the language to figure out, like, what the actual thing going on is. And I feel like that's like 80% of a person helping you improve, and then like 20% is your modality or whatever other stuff you've got going on. That's just the feeling that I have on that. Yeah. I don't know how you, like, can you train those types of conversational skills. Do you think that that is an important thing or is this something that is more modality focused? Whatever. Yeah.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think you can absolutely train it. I think that. Yeah. So a couple things. One is that I think you can absolutely train that. I think that the main thing. What I found as a therapist, I mean, I think I'm a pretty good therapist, although I'm not really sure, to be honest. But I would say a couple of things. One is that I think the most important thing for a therapist is to be adaptive, because not everyone needs the same thing.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
Right. So. So in. In your case, like. And what we did yesterday was have a conversation, not therapy. No, no.
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Unknown B
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
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Unknown A
And I'm not saying that from a medical disclaimer standpoint. I mean that like, more from a. Like a. People need to understand that what happens in therapy is different. So even when people say, I'm looking for a therapist with Dr. K, like, Dr. K, they don't really know what they're saying because they've never seen me do therapy.
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Unknown B
No, but I know what they're saying because I have the same feeling when I watch you do it. What they're saying is this guy listens to people. He understands what they mean. Like, really? So.
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Unknown A
So there are a couple of other things that, like, I do that I think can absolutely be taught, which I think you mentioned, confidence in therapy. So one is that, like. And I think we know this in therapy too, but we don't emphasize it quite as much. I do a lot of spiritual work. So the person that steps into the room is like, different. I don't know how else to say that, but, like, when you grow as a person. Right. So this is why, you know, we're one of the few professions where in some cases not mandatory, but oftentimes going through your own therapy is a part of the training. So we've learned that a strong therapist as a human is really important for therapy. So I think doing that kind of work that gives you that confidence, that understanding. So I think that's, like, good that our profession does that.
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Unknown A
So I think I've done a lot of work. The other thing that I do is I use a couple of models which I think are way more accessible to people. And this is fundamentally different. This is different from all of Western psychology. So if you look at Western psychology, there's, in my opinion, a couple of fundamental flaws. Not to say that it is inferior. It has some advantages and some disadvantages. The biggest flaw with Western psychology is that it was done from the outside looking in. This is also its biggest strength. If you look at Western science, there is the observer and there is the observed. When I'm a doctor and I'm trying to figure out if you have cancer, I'm going to do an X ray, I'm going to do a blood test, I'm going to look inside you, and I am going to make the determination of what's right and what's wrong.
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Unknown A
Now, that works great in medicine because we have instruments that allow me to look inside you. The problem is that when it comes to thoughts and emotions and subjective experiences, no therapist can understand what's going on in another person. Now, if you compare that to the yogic system, the yogic system has access to thoughts and emotions. Because it was diy, a yogi is looking at their own mind. So they have a tier of information beyond what a therapist is capable of. Because I can look at my own thoughts, no therapist can see my thoughts, no matter how good they are in the planet. At the same time, there is a weakness to that system as well, which is that the moment that I start looking at my thoughts, I open the door to subjectivity. So Western psychology has more objectivity, but no direct ability to look at thoughts or emotions or internal experiences.
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Unknown A
The Eastern system has subjectivity, but the ability to study that so I think part of what makes me good is because I understand this system when I explain things to people. It's not some complex Oedipal, Freudian, analytic or even some cognitive behavioral. This is a defense mechanism. And if you look at cognitive behavioral therapy, by the way, cognitive behavioral therapy is closest to the yogic system because it teaches the patient about their own mind more than any other system. I'm sure psychodynamic therapists will disagree with me, but I think if you literally look at one hour of cognitive behavioral therapy and you ask patients what do you understand about your mind before and after, I think you'd see greater improvement or greater subjective feeling of understanding. So I think that can also be trained this, this eastern of the, the mind, which includes things like aham, got her ego, which is a big piece that's missing from western mind.
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Unknown A
So I think that's what makes people feel like they understand it. Because I'm not talking about it from the outside looking in, I'm talking about it from the inside looking in. So I think those two or three things can absolutely be trained. And then the real hot take that I have is I think there are all kinds of things that therapists should get or could get trained in, which hopefully we'll start doing at HEI at some point. But I think I think therapists should get trained in charisma. So I think becoming more charismatic as a therapist, my, my strong intuition is that will make you far more effective at therapy. The person problem is that saying something like that will scare a lot of people, right? Because there's kind of all kinds of associations of it. Most of us are introverts, but I think having like a strong, forceful personality, which doesn't necessarily mean that you're directive.
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Unknown A
So. And I think we even have data to support this. If you look at common factors research, you know, the therapists that do a good job are the ones that feel like they have a comprehensive system, can understand everything, they feel able to handle whatever the person sends their way. So I think some amount of like personal training goes a long way at that. I think some amount of charismatic training like goes a long way at that. Like when your therapist really feels confident in themselves and you can come in and they can take whatever you can throw at them. That's what makes a good therapist.
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Unknown B
Do you have a lot of this is kind of business oriented, so I understand it's kind of odd questions, I guess, but do you feel like you've known coaches that are come in at this, like Very uncharismatic or unconfident thing. And it's an. It's a. It's a thing maybe not easy to remedy, but there are, like, paths to, if you do this, you will improve here. Or do you think that there's some, like, disposition, personality wise, that is much more suited to therapeutic environments or teaching environments, versus this is like, you probably shouldn't do this.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So. So we've certainly had coaches who are more charismatic. What I think I'm the thinking about one or two in particular. The beautiful thing is to watch coaches who became confident. And I think with that comes some degree of charisma.
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Unknown B
Okay.
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Unknown A
And we actually have. It's really interesting. I've been doing a lot of research on charisma. We know a lot about charisma that we didn't know before. So charisma can absolutely be, like, taught and trained. So we've seen coaches grow in that way, and a lot of it is, like, surviving failure. Like, I'm thinking about a couple of coaches who just had awful groups, and the group just, like, went buck wild and like, they were, like, struggling for a long time, but then you kind of get through it, and then the next time it comes around. I don't know if you all are familiar with, like, the storming, forming, norming concept, but anytime you have, you know, a group, you've got three stages. You've got forming, storming, and norming. So forming is when everyone's like, figuring out what the rules are. And then you kind of go through this adolescence called storming, where people will, like, challenge.
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Unknown A
The group facilitator will be like, who are you to teach this? We don't need you. All this kind of, like negative behavior. And if you can ride out that storm, then we come to norming, which is like a normal, healthy thing. It's just very normal. But so we've absolutely seen, you know, coaches grow in that capacity. I do think some of it is kind of natural predilection, but I think a lot of that is, like, much more skill oriented than we give it credit for. So we think about charisma is an intrinsic skill, but it isn't. I mean, so some people may be prone to it, but just like, you know, learning a musical instrument, you may have a prodigy who's naturally very good at it, but I would say 90% of human beings on the planet can play, you know, Fur Elise if they put their mind to it.
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Unknown A
So they can play something that sounds pretty good, sounds really good, is pretty competent, and there's all kinds of stuff that we know about charisma. So, like, you know, just having a vision is a big part of charisma. Eye contact is a big part of charisma. There's all kinds of things that are like a part of charisma that you can, like, learn.
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Unknown B
Okay.
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Unknown C
It's interesting, I think, about charisma a lot of times because I go in a couple directions. Number one part of why I really like pickup artistry for young men specifically, is because there's. There's a. There's a lot of. There was some toxic stuff, of course, and like, manipulative stuff, but there's a lot of really good basic social skills training. Like cold approaching. It's like it. You want to talk about exposure therapy and whatnot. That's cold approach. Right. And so it's something like Nick and I have talked about how, like. Because I've. I've struggled a lot with anxiety, but particularly social anxiety in the past and now just general anxiety. And he's like, you just go cold approach people more because, like, you know what I don't want to do? Go cold approach people. And I've been like, I don't cold approach people very often because it sounds awful.
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Unknown C
I do cold showers instead because I also don't want to do cold showers. And it's another way to target anxiety. But I think a lot about, like, pickup artistry and how, like, in many ways, you're essentially taking young men, often neurodivergent men, and giving them, like, systematic ways of improving social skills. But then I also think my friend is she's like a musical prodigy and she's singer as well. And what got her, she can pick up any instrument and just play it perfectly. But she's gotten the most fascinated with singing because I think a lot of times when we think about singing and voice, it feels like this stuck thing in the way that, like charisma or intelligence is because we can't see it.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown C
If I have a clarinet, I can hit keys and whatnot, and I can change the pressure in my mouth. Whereas singing, it's. It's all muscular as well in breath. It's just a very unintuitive. Because it's not easy to observe kind of thing, which charisma kind of is as well.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that singing is just a whole different beast for all kinds of reasons. There's so much stuff going on in terms of physiology, diaphragm movement, sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system, super Cool. One thing that I wanted to. I'm sorry, did you want. Was there a question there that I missed?
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Unknown B
No.
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Unknown A
Okay. One thing that I just wanted to. How are we doing on time?
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Unknown B
When did we start?
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Unknown C
We started at 10:20 probably.
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Unknown B
Okay. We're at about two and a half hours, so. Okay, we can wind down.
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Unknown A
But I know that y'all had some. The last thing that I would want is for your community to feel like you didn't challenge me enough or anything like that. So I know that you guys had some question about pseudoscience. Do you guys want to do that?
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Unknown C
I had a Patreon question.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown C
You want to do that about it?
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Unknown A
You guys want to.
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Unknown B
I just hate all the conversations about it. I'm like a very. The. I guess like my approach to things. We would have to have like a super. I think there were a couple statements that you said that I think I would challenge you on, but I think I would know your response. But the, the way that I approach like pseudo whatever. I'm a very. I don't want to use a normatively loaded. We're like grounded because then it makes spiritual people. People sound crazy. But like I'm. I'm like a very dry atheist. When we die, it's all over blah like that kind of mentality. But when I look at other things, yogic stuff or other religions, at the very least, I guess going by what I said earlier, like nobody's. Just because somebody might seem crazy or whatever doesn't mean it's random. There's always reasons why these things are working.
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Unknown B
They must be mapping onto something. And sometimes things can map onto things, things in an unintuitive way that gives you a solution to a problem that your system, because of your approach to the problem, just might not have ever arrived at. That solution just might not even be a thing that you think about. As a quick example, you talked earlier about like subjectivity versus objectivity. I wish I could remember this article I wrote. It's really funny paper. It explored the idea of a lot of people get favorable views of the Soviet Union the older that they get. And there were so many analyses done where it's like, well, you can look at the living conditions and the job markets and the trade and the media, and it's hard to figure this out. And I think this guy was from a former Soviet. I think he was from Poland.
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Unknown B
And he said that if you talk to a 60 or 70 year old person, of course they're going to have much more favorable views of what life Was like when they were in their 20s and 30s. Life sucks now. They're old, their bodies are decaying, they've got chronic pain. But you would never, ever, ever capture that. I mean, theoretically there is. But to even have that hypothesis might be challenging, depending on the environment. So when you talk a lot about alternative medicine stuff, what I try to do, there's two ways to do these. I'll either try to map on what you're saying on a concept that I'm aware of, or something that's more challenging is I'll just try to step into that framework and then I'll see from that framework. Now, obviously, I'm doing this as a very inexperienced person. I'm not like, okay, now I'm in the yoga mindset and I know all of everything.
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Unknown B
Right. But I'll try to step into that framework and you do a good job explaining it, and then see, like, what I can receive here. And then when I go back to my framework, is there anything that I feel. Feel like I've learned or some new insight that's been gained that I don't think I could have gotten in mine? And I think the challenge is, whenever you're talking about these alternative frameworks, I think people's immediate intuition, I'm sympathetic towards it because of all the guru type, like, crazy bullshit out there, is that you're always advocating for a total upheaval or replacement of everything conventional or objective in society with whatever the alternative medicine is. So someone will hear you talk about ayurvedic stuff or yogic stuff, and they'll say, like, oh, so he doesn't believe that. He doesn't think that Adderall even works. And he just wants people to meditate on their problems.
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Unknown B
And he thinks you can think away your depression. Like, wow. And I think that that criticism is very tired. But that's. Yeah, that's usually when I'm, like, defending. I don't even say defending your perspective, but when I'm arguing against people, that's where all the arguments go to. Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown A
So I think the, you know, people who are concerned about, you know, my pseudoscientific take on things, like, they're not wrong. So, like, one thing that I didn't mention. And here we go. So, you know, I didn't mention. But one of the reasons I think I'm a good therapist, honestly, is, is because I do a pretty esoteric meditation practice around the agna chakra. So this is like one of the chakras, which is like, there's no Scientific evidence for. But I'm convinced, right, just based on my personal experiences, that. So the Agni Chakra governs, like, intuition. So one of the things that I'm known for is quickly elucidating what is going on with someone. Right. That's part of, like, what people like. I mean, what you referred to earlier.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
Now, when I look at this scientifically, I have to think to myself, okay, so am I above average? I think so. I think my capacity to get to things faster than other people, like, I've been given this feedback by several psychiatrists, my mentors, things like that. Right. So it's not. And you can argue that some amount of, you know, success on the Internet has something to do with that, although there's all kind of other confounding factors. But if I really look at it, am I special in some way? Is Dr. K special? No. The only difference between me and other people is that I was trained in a particular technique which, according to these old yogic texts, fosters intuition. And if I've been doing this technique for 23 years pretty consistently, that is supposed to foster intuition in some way, and I become more intuitive as a result.
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Unknown A
Like, that's not that crazy now. So. So that. That's when I really look at it. Like, if I want to be like, you know, if there's an intervention, which someone has been doing for 23 years, and it's supposed to do something and they have. Have that quality, like, are those two things connected? I think so. From a scientific perspective. Now, is the Agni Chakra real? I have no idea. I believe it is. I'm pretty convinced. But, like, from a scientific. I wouldn't say that the Agni Chakra is real from a science perspective by any means. And I think this is where a lot of the concerns about kind of pseudoscience come in, which I think they're valid. I think there's a couple of considerations that you really have to think about. The first is, I think a lot of these yoga concepts, ayurvedic concepts, are where meditation was like, 70 years ago.
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Unknown A
So meditation. I mean, people were super skeptical of meditation for a very long time, and it has worked for thousands of years now. We have the data, but it's not like meditation magically started working 15 years ago. We always knew it worked. It's just the scientific community was skeptical and for good reason, because there hadn't been studies done. Right. So this is something where I think that, like, the more, the better you understand science. I think there's a lot of Dunning Kruger here where the better you understand science, the more you begin to understand what the flaws with science are. So over 50% of studies are not reproducible. Like people, anyone who you know, has believes in the religion of science sort of like glosses over that fact very, very quickly. So it's not that science isn't good. I mean I read probably between 200 and 300 pages of scientific literature every week.
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Unknown A
Science is amazing, medicine is amazing. The studies that we have on the neuroscience of apathy and anhedonia and what emotional processing looks like and you know, prevalence data studies, attachment theory, all that stuff is fantastic. And also I think that we, if we look at, you know, some of these eastern systems, they were really on to something. So you know, a lot of people don't know this but like I'm a crystal healer, I'm an energy healer. I got trained in something called Bach flower remedies. I've gotten all kinds of weird ass pseudo scientific energy healing kind of stuff. And I don't advocate for any of that. The main reason is because I don't think that the outcomes are there. So there's a big difference between. So I mean for a long time people think about me as like Dr. K and maybe expert on technology addiction, which maybe I am now.
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Unknown A
But historically my career has been focused on evidence based complementary and alternative medicine. I mean that's how I got into Harvard, like that thing. So was in a tai chi lab studying the somatosensory cortex. And I do think that not all pseudoscience is the same, not all alternative medicine is the same. You know, I've done, I'm an energy healer. But like I think there's more value to Ayurveda. Half of the reason that I have a lot of value in Ayurveda is because I had long Covid. My wife had long Covid and after Ayurvedic treatment we're both 100% better. And like bad long Covid. Like I thought my wife had myasthenia gravis. She had really, really bad complications. And so I've seen things as a clinician that I think are just like really, really like this is, we aren't making this stuff up. Placebo ain't fixing long Covid.
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Unknown A
Like it's just not happening now. There's always the possibility. So I also recognize this, right? If we want to be scientific, you want to recognize that maybe the long Covid just got better. So maybe that was just the natural course of illness. Maybe she was just going to get better and it just happened to coincide with Ayurvedic treatment. Is it the Ayurvedic treatment or is it just the natural recovery from illness? We don't know until we do a large scale study. Fair enough. But I think that what we also know is that, you know, this is another thing that I think a lot of people miss about science. People think that science, an experiment, ends with a discovery. That's not correct. The discovery is the first step, right? So hypothesis generation has to happen before you conduct an experiment. And this is what's happened with meditation, is that people knew meditation worked for thousands of years.
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Unknown A
Then what happened is a group of scientists started meditating, basically. TM, I think, was a pretty big influence here where Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came, trained a bunch of scientists in TM and they were like, this is wild. Then they started studying it. So I think meditation, okay, So I think that there's a lot of stuff that, you know, people criticize me for, like advocating for Ayurveda. First of all, I think you have to be nuanced with what my degree of advocacy is. I don't think there has been a single time maybe I'm wrong and if it happened, it was like, generally speaking, not intentional, where I've said, hey, you should go get Ayurvedic treatment for this problem. Because there's a huge problem with Ayurveda, which is that not all of that is the same. The biggest problem with Ayurveda is that they don't know which of their treatments are superior or inferior to others.
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Unknown A
And there's no way that all of them are equally effective. Right? That's just not possible. So I don't advocate for that stuff. I talk about Ayurveda a lot because I find that it has a lot of functional utility. And the parts of Ayurveda that I talk about are also tend to be like more personality oriented, which tend to be very helpful for people. But I think when it comes back to like, you know, pseudoscience and science and stuff like that, I think that there's basically a large crop of treatments that we haven't scientifically verified yet. Meditation, yoga, Tai chi, Qigong, Branayam, these are the first set of them. But even then, I don't know if this kind of makes sense. The studies, all of the studies on meditation are like fundamentally flawed because if you look at the studies on meditation, they tend to take people with no meditative experience and will teach the meditation for eight times to 12 weeks and then we'll look for a clinical outcome in that amount of time.
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Unknown A
This is what the majority of studies show. If you talk to anyone who actually meditates or is a teacher in meditation, eight to 12 weeks is not even beginner. Like that's not even beginner level. So the, the. And we haven't done studies on like master meditators. Right? So there have been some studies. So like for example, there's one study on the WIM HOF technique where people were able to detect a 9 degree Celsius shift in body temperature on your extremities. So these are like things that are like, these are how, you know, monks in the Himalayas will walk around without coats and jackets, will have flip flops on and they don't have frostbite. Like, that's not physiologically possible. Now we know that at least in one study we were able to demonstrate a toe being 9 degrees higher in a person who practices this meditation technique.
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Unknown A
But what I'm saying is like, even the scientific validity of meditation that we've studied is just for novice meditators, it's very little. We're not getting randomized controlled trials on people who have attained nirvana or moksha to really understand what's going on. So we don't even touch that. So I think that a lot of people have concerns. I think those concerns are fair. Right. But that's why when we talk about advocacy, you know what? The most common thing that I will recommend that people do is go see a therapist. The majority of what we draw on is like Western science. And then the reason we started, I remember my first Twitch Stream. I indexed 400 scientific papers before I started streaming on Twitch and I was prepared for a healthy amount of skepticism. I did not prepare any spiritual stuff, but what I found is that that's what people are hungry for.
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Unknown A
Like the spirituality stuff is what seems to be missing for a lot of people. And I think a big reason for that is because there's a fundamental problem with science, which is that science is not translated to diy. So you can't do like, if we look, talk about like, you know, the neuroscience of anhedonia, which is the inability to experience pleasure. Like no scientific paper is going to tell you what you can do if you have difficulty experiencing pleasure.
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Unknown C
Well, more importantly, it would be, it would be an ecological fallacy to do so. Right.
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Unknown A
What do you mean?
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Unknown C
Well, like what people a lot, a lot of time try to do with science and aggregate data is they try the Red pill does this a lot, and it's a big problem with it. Be like, see, people who have lots and lots of partners are really bad. So don't date anyone unless they have zero body count. It's like, well, you're. You're already. This is why I hate the red flag culture. Cause I'm like, if you don't take a red flag in the context of the entirety of the person, all you're doing is using, like, aggregate data to try to, like, make a prescriptive analysis, which any. Any good statistician will tell you. Aggregate data in the way that we're using it, which is usually just like, effect size and stuff, is. Is not prescriptive.
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Unknown A
Completely agree. Right. So this is why. This is why we have clinicians. This is why you need a therapist. Because reading scientific studies, learning that knowledge, that then has to be translated down to the. The point of an individual in order to intervene with them. So, you know, I think, like, a lot of this stuff, a lot of the people have, you know, valid concerns. Like, if y'all. I mean, I tend to think that. I think I used to advocate for Ayurveda more strongly based on a couple of papers that I actually, like, misread or didn't read completely. There was a wonderful post in our community where someone was like, Dr. K cited these papers. I don't think these papers are saying what he thinks they are. And I read the post and I was like, I looked at the papers. I'm like, damn, this person is right.
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Unknown A
So it changed a lot about the way that I talked about Ayurveda. Do I think that there's immense potential there? Absolutely. Like, when my kids, like, so my kids, I have them taking some Ayurvedic medicine. Like, that's how confident I feel in it. I think it's, like, generally speaking, pretty safe. But there are all kinds of challenges with it, so I use it personally. Does that create a bias? Absolutely. But I think that, like, you know, I think we've got to be careful about the arrogance of what we know and what we don't know. And I think meditation is the best example of that. Right. It's taken 70 years for us to realize, holy crap, there is one practice that you can do which has been shown to treat basically any mental illness. There's one practice that we know of. Right. And it works for all of them, which is, like, really wild.
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Unknown A
So they understood something fundamental, which is that they actually try to move completely beyond mind. And most mental illness exists within the Mind and within the body. Anyway, it's neither here nor there, but. So I think that there's a lot of potential there. But for people who are critical of, like me, advocating for this stuff, I think, fair enough.
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Unknown C
I'm gonna give a hot take. I think a lot of people being critical of it are not being fair, and I pretty doggedly oppose them, mostly because I think there's this bias within North America specifically for medical lens, particularly a medical lens of mental health. My supervisor in my undergrad, brilliant man. I don't think I've ever publicly said his name, so I won't, just because I know he's a pretty private guy. But one of the last papers he had me read because he mentored me for two years as well, was this massive criticism of the medical lens of mental health, which I think has been probably one of the greatest banes to clinical and mental health science. Because we've. We've always tried to put mental health into categories of medical conditions, which is understandable because the brain is an organ. But the problem is that the brain is unlike any organization organ We've.
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Unknown C
We have in the rest of our body with its plasticity, the unknowingness that we have, The. The fact that we can't even observe it very well even to this day. Technology, like, technology doesn't have us at the point where we can understand the brain like we can the heart. We just really can't. And when I hear people using the religion of science to attack clinical and medical science that's, like, aimed at, like, bringing out good outcomes for people, it feels like. It feels offensive to me in, like, an injustice kind of way. Right. I think anyone who's, like, for example, dealt with, like, chronic pain or chronic illness, which I have. I have a chronic illness. I've seen every specialist in Alberta and the top specialist said, come back in 10 years and maybe we'll have a name for what you have. For some reason, my cells don't pull water into them very well.
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Unknown C
So I have a bunch of weird dehydration symptoms that I chronically live with, right? My tears are acidic. They kind of burn my face. Just a whole bunch of random little things like that. I've seen tons of doctors. They have no idea. They're like, yeah, that's definitely a thing. Never heard of it before, right? And so when people look at that and they go. Some people hear that and go, well, you just don't have anything. And it's like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I have, I've had like, like marks on my face from like waking up from like my eyes running or something. I have chronic, like, I don't know what to tell you, I'm living it. But they also will dismiss like, I'm willing to throw spaghetti at the wall and see what works. Like people like, if you like ate your computer and it cured your would you be willing to try your eating your computer if it like would cure your thing?
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Unknown C
And I'm like, yeah, if I could see any, any suggestion from somebody that eating my computer would fix my illness, I would of course try it. Right. Which gets into the snakes ailment, snakeman, snakes, snake oil salesman issue, which is people who, regardless of evidence against something that isn't well evidenced, they continue to push it. And the problem is that we can't take that type of individual and apply it to for example, clinicians who are like, well, we've tried all the traditional stuff, it's not really working for you. Heard of these other things, you should maybe give them a try. And we'll treat that advice the same as a snake oilsman who, he knows what he's making is fake, he knows that it's not good and he's selling it anyway.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown C
And it frustrates me that these things get lumped in together. And I think it's a massive failing of the scientific community in general to not have a truly scientific heart and mind. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So I totally resonate with that frustration. So I think in my practice before this whole healthy gamer thing, I used to basically get treatment resistant referrals. So people from primary care physicians, a lot of the psychosomatic illnesses, like weird stuff. And so I totally get that. I think that medicine hasn't figured everything out yet by any means. I think interestingly enough in your story, I think is the best support for western medicine. So you said that you read a paper that was recommended by your mentor. Right. So this means that there was published literature criticizing western science and its conception of mental health. This is the strongest thing about western medicine that I think a lot of these CAM interventions don't have. We are really good in the west. And this is ultimately the reason I went to medical school instead of ayurvedic medical school.
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Unknown A
We are really good at figuring out when we make mistakes. So we'll have FDA approval of drugs and then we'll pull those drugs off the market. Right. Like we have studies now that show that 70% of an SSRI, the effect of an SSRI is placebo. So non pharmacologic effects. So we're really good at, like, admitting when we make mistakes. That's what's really missing in the CAM stuff is I've never talked to an ayurvedic doctor who's said like, oh yeah, like this branch of medicine doesn't work right. They don't critically look at their treatments very well. And at the same time, I think that there is a lot of good stuff there. I think science and the challenge that I kind of struggle with as a clinician is like, you know, when patients like you come into my office and they're looking for something, do I just say this is the best that we've got, or do we try something?
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Unknown A
And the stuff that I try is also, like, thoughtful. Right. So there's a proper informed consent process. There's also some things that, for example, like the reason I recommend yoga, meditation, pranayam, qigong and those kinds of things. I don't even usually recommend ayurvedic treatment is because there is some data that shows that that stuff like yoga is superior to exercise when it comes to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis. Tai Chi is superior to exercise when it comes to osteoarthritis. It's a great publication in the New England Journal of Medicine, which is like the highest impact fact journal, showing that Tai chi, there's something going on there. And so I think when you develop these interventions based on this system of qi, which has no scientific evidence, those practices outperform purely physical practices. Now why is that? Is the system of QI real? I don't know. But they were onto something.
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Unknown A
They figured something out. And so I think that there's a. There's a lot of like, valid criticism there. And there's a lot of, I think, kind of like you said, like almost like a religion of science. And I see a lot of people like in, you know, I was looking at a black pill research index about relationships and they cited all of these papers and all of those papers may be supportive of a black pill, but that's still a huge problem because that's. They're not citing the thousands or millions of papers that are anti black pill. They just don't include that data.
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Unknown B
Right.
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Unknown A
So. And I think a lot of people don't realize the biggest. Speaking of arrogance, there are whole research indexes that people in the west don't, aren't, aren't. They're not on PubMed, they're not on Google Scholar. So India has its own research database. Right. They have like 1.4 billion people who are producing research that we don't have access to. And oftentimes when I talk to people like, you know, doctors, they're like, what? Yeah, just because you can't find the evidence doesn't mean that the evidence, like how arrogant can you be that, oh, it's not indexed in Europe and North America, therefore it doesn't exist. Like, I don't think so, man. Like, people are stunned.
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Unknown C
Yeah, I think you said something really good there. That is also like a good counterbalance, which is that like the process of science itself is like one of the greatest things. Like in my opinion, I think science is the best thing humans have ever come up with. I think it's incredible and I'm really passionate about science. But science, the fundamental of science says if we, does something work, I don't know, let's try it.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown C
And I think the worst thing that happens sometimes in for a cudgel of science is they go, that sounds really weird. Let's not try it.
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Unknown A
Yeah, right.
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Unknown C
And it's like that's, that's inherently anti scientific. And I don't, I don't have a lot of grounds for people using the cudgel of science to take away from people trying to engage in science, essentially.
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Unknown A
I think scientists are just as vulnerable to, you know, their brains as people who have strong political beliefs.
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Unknown C
They're people too.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
I feel like the, without getting to ground my audience as the atheist here. No, I'm just kidding. I, I think the thing that frustrates me without making strong statements on Tai chi or ayurvedic medicine or anything like that is just epistemic and metaphysical humility. So I think that sometimes people think that they're making stronger statements than they have the justification to make. And I think it's hard sometimes just for people to realize that. I do, obviously I'm a product of the west and I'm a huge champion of a lot of western things, including big pharma and Western pharmacology and medical interventions and, you know, everything related to that. And I do think that the system of science has produced really positive outcomes. And I think you agree as well. And I think any, anybody around the planet generally probably agrees, but that doesn't mean that there aren't different ways of, I guess, thinking about things.
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Unknown B
I did the, the making the rounds, having to do the trans debates. Somebody will ask, and it's such a frustrating question because there's no immediate way to communicate. Somebody will say, like, what is a woman. And I'm like, that's such a complicated question for so many ways. But like you think that it's complicated because I'm a woke who doesn't believe in gender or whatever. But the reality is like, even the question like what is a table? It's really, really, really difficult question. And you keep saying this thing and it's very funny, you keep saying like there's no scientific evidence for chi. And that's true. But science isn't even really technically in the category of like metaphysically establishing like the ontology of things at all. That's all just taken for granted. So like for instance, when we say the fact that like. Yeah, you know this.
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Unknown B
Yeah. Like when a brain exists or the entire concept of a pathology is that all of these things are social paradigms or these are all things that are kind of like human constructed. The idea that a tree is a coherent thing that exists separate from the earth but includes leaves and branches. These are all things that are. Yeah. I just, I wish people would be a little bit more. Whatever metaphysical ground you stand on, people assume that's the absolute truth and everything else is like way more subjective when that's not even remotely true.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think that that's something that. So I think there's a big dunning Kruger there. So if you, if I know this is going to sound insane, but this is like technically true. And I think if you ask well trained psychiatrists, they would agree with what I'm about to say. There is no such thing as bipolar disorder. Sure.
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Unknown B
Right.
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Unknown A
So bipolar disorder, all pathologies. Yeah, yeah. All pathologies are constructs, especially our mental.
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Unknown B
Illness pathologies, even our physical one. So you could be stronger. Like a healthy heart versus an unhealthy heart. What does healthy even mean? All of these things are at the end of the day, some human constructed category. As weird as that is to sound. We can have a feeling of what is healthy.
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Unknown A
But I think, I think there is a. There's a gradient of human constructed.
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Unknown B
Sure.
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Unknown A
So I think some things are reducible.
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Unknown B
To more real states and are a little bit easier to understand than like mind states. For sure. Yeah.
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Unknown C
Like the COVID virus is a virus no matter what, and you can test.
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Unknown A
For it and look and I would say like, you know, a cancer. Best definition of cancer I've ever heard is when a cell forgets to die or how to die and that brings.
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Unknown B
A lot of friends along and it.
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Unknown A
Keeps reproducing and they don't know how to die. When they're supposed to. So. And I think that, like, I agree that there's some epistemic problems and stuff like that. At the same time, I think, you know, just as someone who does largely practice evidence based medicine, I think that there are some, there are a lot of things that science does well. So I think even though we don't have, even though bipolar disorder is not like a thing, I think our systems of taking things that are not real and syndromically categorizing them and stuff like that is very robust. So, so I think that this is where there's also a lot of differences, like in Ayurveda to compare to Western medicine, where there's this one research measure called Cronbach's alpha, which is basically like the likelihood that two independent people will come to the same conclusion about a particular thing.
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Unknown A
So if I create a diagnostic construct, a big part of the validity of that construct is if the three of us each examine a patient, how close is the Cronbach's alpha to 1? So 1 means that there's 100% agreement on what the problem is. So those kinds of things, I don't know if they exist in Ayurveda. Like, those are the kinds of research questions that I have. So when someone says, oh, your dosha is like vata pitta. Like I don't know how much consistency there is between Ayurvedic physicians. So there's a lot of stuff that, you know, we do well in science. I think I'd agree with you that we tend to have. There's a lot of faith in science and medicine that people don't really realize. So usually like people aren't aware of their axioms. And this also goes back to, you know, a lot of the people who will criticize will be projecting, right?
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Unknown A
So they, when I say Ayurveda, they will attach all kinds of things to it that maybe the book Chopra will say or other people will say things like that. And I think that that's like, that's just normal human behavior, right. When I, when I say dog, I am, or when you say I got a dog, I have a projection of what that is that I will like assume I know what you're talking about.
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Unknown B
Which is all language. Yeah, yeah. And then I, even if something as simple as that, same with a lot of people don't like, I can never communicate a thing to you ever. I really am hoping that I'm uttering some word that you can map onto a thing that you've experienced but absent that experience, I can't explain, like, color to a blind person or.
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Unknown A
Yeah, yeah, so, so. And I think, though, that it's also important to remember that there's gradients there. Right? So, like, generally speaking, the world functions because we can agree on what a dog is. And it's like, hey, can I pick up your dog? And then when I show, show up, like, I'm not going to get an elephant.
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Unknown B
Sure. The only reason I fight a little bit is because I think that there are. When you say gradient, I would agree in a private conversation with you that there is a gradient. But when a lot of people say gradient, there's a lot of stuff that they're like, okay, well, yeah, there's a gradient for Ayurveda, which is stupid, but there are some very real things like science or like racial categories or whatever other things that people want to get into. Like, I think that people don't realize that that gradient extends all the way down to past whatever you think is axiomatically true. Right? That, like, sure, yeah, yeah.
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Unknown A
But, yeah, so I agree with you. I think that that's a more philosophical discussion. Not to say that it's worth less, but I think, especially when it comes to Ayurveda or spirituality or whatever, or like astrology, I think that there's a lot more loaded assumption. There's a lot more Klista. So if I say astrology, what I mean. And the people's definition of astrology will be very different and they'll interpret a lot more from that phrase or that word.
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Unknown B
I wish that. Another reason why I wish that people were a little bit more aware of the gradients of two things is one, you bring up, like, well, sure, there's no evidence for qi, right. But unless I'm incorrect when it comes to every, I think for every single psychiatric illness, your diagnostic criteria, I think all of these involvement, multiple things relating to your engagement with the world, maybe almost every single one. Right. Like the, like, if I'm, if I'm running through the DSM 5 for whatever, ADHD or bipolar, whatever, it's not like the enzyme level is this. Your organs are doing that. It's like, can you have a job? How are your relationships? Yeah. Are you functioning?
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
And even that, like, dysfunctional. How functional in modern society where you're expected to live a certain life in a certain way. Yeah. And the, yeah, the, the, the gradients, the gradients exist a lot more places, I think that people realize and it's very frustrating that. So, for instance. Oh, yeah. And then the second thing is, like. So you'll say, like. Like there's a gradient. So that's why I understand when you say there's no evidence for qi. Well, of course it's on the gradient. But if you were to ask most people, is there more evidence that, like, bipolar is real versus Chi? Obviously bipolar is real, but, like, what does that even mean, to say that, to pathologize, like, different brain states? Like, I don't think people even realize what that.
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Unknown A
No, I mean, I would say that there's more evidence that bipolar real then there is qi.
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Unknown B
Sure. But it depends on what you mean when you say bipolar.
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Unknown A
Sure.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown A
So. So I mean, I think that there's a philosophical, like, there's like a philosophical approach to this and there's like a more practical approach.
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Unknown B
You keep saying that. I'm trying to. Yeah, I don't. I don't know how I think that. So, for instance, when you say bipolar, what we're assuming is there are pathologized brain states, and so there are some brain states. When we say, like, bipolar is a real thing, we can say that there are objectively some brain states that are not deep, good, there are bad ones to be avoided.
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Unknown A
Yes. And that are characterized in a particular way.
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Unknown B
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's.
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Unknown A
That's why I mentioned Cronbach's alpha. So, like, because, like, so. So there is a particular state that is observable by multiple people, that we can all agree that someone who does not sleep for four days in a row is. Has hypersexuality, has increased spending, hears voices, that this is a construct that even if bipolar disorder itself is not real, it maps onto the world in a more consistently observable way.
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Unknown B
For sure. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So I think where we are with chi is that the entity of QI cannot be detected. But there is a big chunk of evidence. Part of the reason that I put stock in it is that even if chi is not real, a practice that is developed using the theory of QI outperforms a practice that is not. Is developed without the theory of qi. And so that was the big thing that got me into this stuff in the first place, because when I was looking at studies on crystal healing and when I became like a Reiki healer, like, I tried that stuff, didn't see much of a difference. Looked at studies, didn't see much. You see quality of life improvements, which is one of the purposes of medicine. Same reason we give people anesthesia and opioids. There's value to that. But it's not. I didn't see clinical outcomes the way that I do with tai chi, yoga, etc.
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Unknown B
All right, are there any other final. Oh, did we have a question?
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Unknown C
I have three Patreon questions.
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Unknown A
Let's go for it.
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Unknown B
Go through.
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Unknown C
Okay. First one is from Vince.
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Unknown A
Okay.
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Unknown C
Have you ever talked to anybody on the ground who is a psychiatrist about PTSD occurring among soldiers and civilians in, says, those regions? I'm assuming they mean in war regions. And if. Yes. Are there any interesting things you've discovered by talking to them?
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Unknown A
Can you read the question again?
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Unknown C
I'll summarize it more.
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Unknown A
Okay.
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Unknown C
Have you ever spoken to psychiatrists that are actively working in war torn areas with soldiers or civilians? And is there anything interesting you've discovered about PTSD specifically in relation to that?
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Unknown A
Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the biggest things that people miss about PTSD is we think like, if an event happens, you will get ptsd. But if you, if you really look at populations of people who have traumatic events, right, you'll have, let's say like a group of soldiers who get attacked or like a bomb falls or something like that. The exposure is actually the same for all of these soldiers. The really interesting thing, and you can look at, you know, I've worked with people who, or have been taught by people who have worked in like genocidal conflicts. And the really interesting thing is that basically there's like a bifurcation where some people develop PTSD and some people actually go through something called post traumatic growth, where like, traumatic events, you know, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, or scars you for the rest of your life or cripples you.
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Unknown A
So I think that's a big thing that a lot of people don't realize is that like, the event is not what creates the ptsd, it is the event interacting with a human being in the way that that human being receives that event and processes that event which correlates with the development of PTSD or post post traumatic growth. And there are some really fascinating studies about this. One really interesting thing is that. So when people would have traumatic events, we used to think that giving benzodiazepine drugs, so these are things like Xanax, Valium, Diazepam, Lorazepam would help people because they'd help people sleep, they'd alleviate anxiety. But it turns out that giving these drugs immediately after a traumatic event increases the risk of ptsd, based on the last time I looked at the data. And the reason is because sleep is when we have memory consolidation so when you help people sleep after a traumatic event, what your brain actually does is locks in the trauma.
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Unknown A
That's my hypothesis. They're not mine, but the hypothesis that resonates with me. And so actually, like, it's really interesting because when you go through something bad, you have difficulty sleeping. And that may be an adaptive mechanism which a lot of people don't realize. So that was just one release. So now we don't give benzos after a traumatic event because it seems like they're harmful.
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Unknown C
Interesting. That's really interesting. I actually didn't know that. Philip asked. Political discussions, especially between the left and right wing perspectives, often center on morality. How can we navigate these conversations without making our partner feel attacked or causing them to shut down?
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Unknown A
Okay, so two or three things. One is you cannot have a conversation with the outcome as a feeling in another human being. That's not because you can't control feelings. Right. So this is, I think, a really common problem that people have where they're like, they try to have a, how can I tell my partner this without them getting upset? No, that's not the goal. You should be. Them getting upset is partially their responsibility. Right. So I think there are good ways to have conversations where even if you have it in a particular way, they can still get upset. Now, a really good example of this is like, with borderline Personality disorder. There's a great book called Walking on eggshells, which is like this experience that people have when they're in a relationship with someone who has borderline personality disorder. This doesn't have to be romantic.
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Unknown A
This can be your parent or whatever. And then it feels like you're walking on eggshells because if you say the wrong thing, they're going to get upset. And so you walk very carefully. You don't want to upset them, don't upset them, don't upset them. But something very dangerous happens when you do that. You start taking responsibility for their emotions, and that allows them to not take responsibility for their emotions. So I think when you're talking about your partner getting upset, I think your partner getting upset is an acceptable consequence of a conversation. Now, that doesn't mean that we want to have a conversation that increases the likelihood that they get upset. But I think you've got to be super careful about taking responsibility for your partner getting upset. You all should be able to have conversations, get upset, and then have conflict resolution to work through that feeling of being upset, having emotional regulation skills and things like that.
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Unknown A
Now, as far as how to have a conversation with your Partner about politics, there are a couple of very practical things. I think the first thing is, I think Dale Carnegie said, seek first to understand, then to be understood. So a lot of what we've talked about today is like, if your partner disagrees with you, really try to understand why. Really try to understand where this person is coming from and accept for a moment that they are right. And really do your best to understand that once you understand where they're coming from, that changes the way that you see them. That's gonna change. Like, once someone does something that you find understandable, your blame towards them goes down. Right. So like, if we kind of look at, like, you know, interpersonal conflicts, like, oh, this person is such an asshole. Like, I can't understand. Like, I would never do that to someone.
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Unknown A
Right. So the. The degree of anger that you feel correlates in, inversely correlates with your degree of understanding. So the more understanding you are, the better things will be. So I would say first, if you want to have a conversation about politics, really try to understand where they're coming from. Try to decompress their emotions some and then, like, once everything is calmed down, then y'all can have a conversation.
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Unknown C
Last question. They wanted to be left anonymous. So, just from a Patreon team member, how do we know your advice is better than anyone else's? Self help is often viewed as pseudoscience and false. How do we. How do we know what works versus what is empirical?
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Unknown B
Well, okay, that last dichotomy was interesting. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So. So how do you know my advice is better than anyone else's? You don't. I'm not. I mean, I'm the first person to say that I don't think my advice is better than anyone else's. Like, I don't. So you don't know that my. And I don't give advice. I think that first statement.
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Unknown B
That can't be. Unless you're defining advice in a weird way, you must think it's somewhat better than what somebody would naturally run into otherwise, why offer it?
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Unknown A
I offer it because it's what. It's my attempt to help.
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Unknown B
Sure. But if you think you're helping somebody, then it's more than them consuming some other particular thing, I would imagine.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So. So I think that there's. That it's not what's in my head. Like, I don't think I'm better or. I mean, I do think my advice, my understanding of things is better or worse than other people's. That's true. But that's not. I mean, I don't think that you shouldn't listen to someone else. Right. So I think the main thing, if you want to understand, like, you know, should you take my advice, which I really try not to give. I think the proof is in the pudding and the proof is in the application. So if it resonates with you, you try something thing and then you try it for a while and you see if it works for you. I think the majority of people in our community are there not because they think that my advice is better, but because something about the way that we explain things, something about the way that we, you know, talk about problems, help people understand problems, is helpful for them.
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Unknown A
But this is also where you've got to be super careful because just because it helps for, let's say somewhere between 3 and 15 million people on the Internet, doesn't mean that it's going to work for you. And the biggest challenge right now on the Internet is not finding advice. It's like figuring out which advice works for you. That's a personalized journey.
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Unknown B
Yeah.
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Unknown C
Feel like that answers the question. That's everything we had from Patreon. Cool, thanks.
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Unknown B
Any big messages? What's your one? You can sell one self help tip. Not in a gimmicky sense, but I guess for. So my audience is primarily, it probably actually has similar ish demographics to yours. What's the thing that you find is like the most helpful that people need to hear in your audience the most?
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think the biggest thing that people I think sometimes don't appreciate is like, you don't really have to fix your problems. Like if you understand, I'm sorry, go ahead.
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Unknown B
Obviously that's great. Let's send it right there.
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Unknown A
Yeah. So I think a lot of people get super caught up about how do I fix this, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? This. I don't know how to say this, but just as a psychiatrist and working with people for a long time, you know, focus on understanding yourself first and foremost and then the problem will kind of, the solution will sort of present itself. I think a lot of people know what they need to do. They just can't bring themselves to do it. So that's, that's a problem of lack of understanding, not lack of a solution, if that sort of makes sense. Right. So, and I think that that's really where we get kind of tripped up, is that we don't really know, like we're not given like an owner's manual. There's no like you can't hit start, go to the Options screen and open up the key binds and figure out exactly how to make yourself work.
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Unknown A
So I think focus more on understanding. Because once you understand, if you think about, like, what's the difference in something being easy and something being hard, when you don't know it, it's hard. And when you know it, it becomes easy. So everyone's focused on effort, everyone's focused on motivation, everyone's focused on. Focused on discipline and willpower and cold showers and all this kind of stuff. They're focused on actions, not understanding. And if you look at the YOGIC system, they believe. I believe I'm coming to believe that Avidya or ignorance is the root of just about all of our problems and especially our suffering. The more that you understand about yourself, the more that you understand about other people, the easier life will be.
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Unknown B
Okay, cool. Well, thanks. I appreciate the message.
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Unknown A
Sure.
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Unknown B
The audience does. Thanks a lot for joining us. Any final.
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Unknown C
Yeah, it was great having you on. We appreciate it.
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Unknown B
Yeah, thanks a lot. What's your next. Where can people find you? What do you want people to follow the most?
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Unknown A
Check out our YouTube. I mean, I think that's the simplest.
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Unknown B
Thing to do and it's still Healthy Gamerg or just healthy Gamer. Healthy Gamergy. Cool. All right, good luck with your expansion of your everything that's going on. I mean, we, yeah, both of us have had a lot of stuff on the Internet, so, like success and expansion, everything else. So that's cool. Glad to see it. And. Yeah, cool.
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Unknown A
Thanks a lot.
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Unknown C
Awesome. Thanks for coming in.
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Unknown A
Thanks for having me. Yeah, this was fun.
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Unknown B
Cool. Okay.
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Unknown C
I did it.
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Unknown B
Good. Tim.
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Unknown C
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