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Unknown A
Realistically, the only thing pinning value to music is fear that the government will lock you up or fine you if you share it without permission. Which is. Which doesn't sit with me right. Almost every single generative AI thing in the world is infringing copyright and it'and if you or I did it our in the way that we could, with the technology we have access to, we would be sued. I think it's a lot of money now, but the inflation will increase and it will ll be just enough money to buy them a mattress when they're ready to die. And it all just gets siphoned away through inflation while everything that is a hedge to inflation is owned. And I came to this conspiracy theory from companies constantly trying to buy my entire body of work, like just private equity firms just saying, oh, you wa want toa sell us all of your work?
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Unknown A
And think to myself, like, buying music right now in the streaming e on AI and everything seems like a terrible investment. Like, who would want to give me hundreds of thousands of dollars from my library? But there's just a lot of things to buy.
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Unknown B
What's your background in music? Like an abbreviated version from age 5 I think you said start until now?
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Unknown A
Yeah. H5 I saw guitar at the Wisconsin State Fair. I was like raised in the house with my step grandpa and grandmother and I begged my step grandpa for a guitar for this little guitar, and he ended up buying it for me. And then I fell in love with it and I played it all the time and I got really, really good. When I was like 12, I was playing solos, unable to play generally anything I heard. And I don't know what happened, but I was in a bunch of bands. And then I eventually decided that nobody was putting in as much as I was. If I was in a band, I was singing and playing guitar and then I was showing the drummer how to play a beat better and things. And I was just so focused on music. And so I just ended up being like, I'm gonna buy drum machine and I'm gonna make my own music.
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Unknown A
And that's kind of how I bridged into electronic was like trying to make, you know, at the time electronic music was like acid house and like what ended up kind of turning into edm. But I was trying to like make I guess more Buddy Rich eve jazzy or things like that with a drum machine. And it didn't really sound right, but it sounded like a different type of music that ended up becoming are later a genre later.
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Unknown B
Do you edit out my hesitation? Dave Gro that's a real guy from Nirvana.
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Unknown A
Yeah, he's a drummer y van Foo Fighters.
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Unknown B
Oh, he mightf.
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Unknown A
Is he the leader of Food?
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Unknown C
You're looking at me like I'm ever gonna know any.
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Unknown A
Well, I don't really know. Yeah, I don't know who that.
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Unknown C
Whatever that guy's name wasex twin.
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Unknown B
Yeah, I think he had. I remember him talking about the era of. I think it was like instant talent on like talent shows or whatever. He kind of went on a whole diat trribe about how we kind of like lost something from music caus it's not like a bunch of kids playing in garages anymore. They're like experimenting with each other. Not like that. Like experimenting playing music with each other. Yeah. So I've seen a lot of arguments Scs because you came from a formal music got formal ish. You were playing jazzy stuff. That's where one of them and then kind of got into the electronic stuff. There's so much back and forth between the state of music where some people are like, music has never been more sad than it has been today. And then other people are like, it was a greater availability of anything ever.
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Unknown B
You just want to list to what's popular. How do you feel about, I guess that discussion in general?
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Unknown A
So there's like two sides to this in a big way where a lot of people are trying to protect their intellectual property. And then I am totally for that. And I understand. And I understand that a lot of people need to continue making a living if they're making a living off their work. And I mean what anybody'watching listening to right now is intellectual property. And that's how you're going to make money from it. And that's how it's going toa pay for itself. Hopefully on the other end. It's an absurd thing like saying like, if I hum a song right now, if I just play something on the piano here and I just pull song out of my ass, you legally can't play it in front of an audience. Like that's against the law. Which is kind of just insane to say this is mine and it's worth is however much I say it's worth.
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Unknown A
And that's what the law recognizes. It's really just like a bandage that just kept getting bigger and snowballing. And now we live in this really confusing world where like we have the popular. One of the most popular music genres is based on sampling other people's music. But like, it's super illegal to do so without consent. But a lot of people are doing it without consent. There's electronic music genres like jungle drum and bass that are, like, founded on single samples that nobody had permission to resample. Like, there's a break called the Amen break. And. Yeah, and it's from. Yeah, it's a piece music that nobody had permission to sample. And thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of songs have sampled it. Like things that have charted and Billboard, you know, Stu. So. But the base of the whole thing, a big confusing argument, is that realistically, the only thing pinning value to music is fear that the government will loc you up or fin you if you share it without permission.
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Unknown A
Which is. Which doesn't sit with me. Right. And it is absurd. And I think that. I hope that the one good thing about everything that's happening with AI and people not being paid enough royalties, I think that the silver lining to that is that we might actually figure out that compensating an artist or creator or an interviewer or a writer is better than paying them through their intellectual property. Because that's where everybody's taking advantage of it too. That's where you have all these middlemen.
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Unknown C
So what do you mean by that? So obviously I'm imagining you'd be not very supportive of, like, Spotify then, in general, or like being paid per view or paid per listen. You want people to like, how do you want an artist instead to make. If I'm a musician, what's like, the ideal sense for you of making money.
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Unknown A
If you're a musician? And you said, then I want to make money as a musician? I would say, okay, ideally, realistically create a Patreon. And then I would tell people to join your Patreon, because that's just giving you money to make music which people want to listen to. And there's not many middlemen. There's still a lot. They're still going to be PayPal, they're still going to be Patreon themselves, taking their 10 to 15%. But ultimately, it's not nearly as many middlemen as Apple Music Store, sorry, Apple Storeify or whoever. You're downloading the app through Google Play or Apple Spotify, then a label, a distributor, a digital distributor, like Distro Kid, all of those things. And then you have like PayPal and all that stuff. The other around you have so many middlemen that are taking pennies out of thatllar. And yeah, so it's just like, why are we doing this?
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Unknown A
That's like the number one solution would just be to support artists Directly rather than doing it through their intellectual property. I would much rather have intellectual property be free and people support artists.
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Unknown C
So general, you don't want people to have intellectual property. Like you don't want me to go do doo and then claim that as like my Little Diddy song in a.
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Unknown A
Fantasy world, except not diddy. Because in a fantasy world I would write an album or everybody would write an album and it would go on a site like GitHub and be fully open source and other people would be able to use it as inspiration or write to it and just the whole ownership of a melody wouldn't be a thing. Like you would just support an artist who made things that you liked and you would constantly. Another thing I really like about so another two issues to sort of quickly bring into this. One of them, Kanye West's Life of Pablo. He releases the album, I think exclusive to title, then he releases it on Spotify. And then he didn't like something about it and he changed something and he just re uploaded it or his label re uploaded it. And that blew my mind because I was like, he just gave an album a 1.1.
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Unknown A
He just brough it from 1.0 to 1 0, 1.0 to 1.1. And the crazy thing about that is like, why do we still have albums as these tombstones that are just like we could if we wanted to, but why is that the norm? Why if I make an album, why can't I make a 2.0? Why can t I add songs to it or change ideas and then allow a person to go back to those other iterations if they wanted to? If I deleteed a song and they like that song, they could go back. We have full capability to do that. The only reason that you would have to make an album, Not a Living thing would be if you were living in the 1985 when you had to download buy a cassette or you couldn't download something. So that's the first thing I'd really loved for albums to be living things.
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Unknown A
Because one thing that was happy before I had like a YouTube channel and everything, every time I released an album I would look at like what people were saying and they'say oh, I'm really glad that that's awesome that Ben's still making music. I had no idea was still making music. Like as if I became like an H Vac repair person or something. But it. You always had to remind people that you were still alive every year or two years or three years when you're releasing an album but if you had a living album you would always be engaged with that like you are with social media with other things. And then on the other side of that, like I said earlier, I would much rather just see intellectual property with music and things like that just not be the way that. But this is also like a fantasy world like so many things.
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Unknown A
This is also. I also like for universal healthcare to be available in the United. There's like a bunch of things that. That would be great but it's a very complicated transition.
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Unknown B
Do you think I guess from a creative perspective you wouldn't be worried about the desire to fall into the traffic like endlessly like tweaking songs or something on an album if you had the ability to go back and I guess rework it.
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Unknown A
I don't think I would now. I mean I think there's a few things that I would do maybe a little bit differently where I felt like now, you know, with a wiser mind 20 years later you. I may have made a crash cymbol a little bit less harsh in a certain place or something But I truly for me personally I trul think I would be annoyed with those tasks. I would just want to new musiceeah.
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Unknown B
Because sometimes those like shitty like mastering like whatever of certain eras or just of sounds or songs or whatever are products of the time and if you to go back and clean them up or change them it kind makes it something a little different. Do you think? I'm with you on I actually really don't like creative intellectual property. I'm sympathetic towards parts of it. I think it has to exist to protect it to some extent. Nobody s going to make a huge investment time and money if somebody just copy it and then just give it to everybody for free. So I'm my favorite but I feel like those protections should be like one to five years and then we're done. Not like this like 800 year for everything.
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Unknown A
I mean and that's one of the reasons why I think in music and some videos and things like that is because if you have somebody making a huge investment in an album and then they want to own the intellectual property over that it's usually like a major label or something. And the person making the investment in there doesn't need to be involved. They don't actually because they don't really need. Even somebody like Eminem doesn't need a million dollars to make an album. And it's just that investment is what is creating all the abuse that is creating all of the problems that you.
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Unknown B
Hear about Every day I feel like music also has a special issue of. I don't know if because is s an auditory medium but in music you can play two melodies and they might sound like pretty similar but like you could like the context of the melody harmonically or instrumentational, whatever's a million of ways that could sound like completely different and they end up a really goofy worlds sometimes. Where was it the Ice Baby song that was I think a big lawsuit. The yeah. And then there was another one that was sampling. So sample I show with the music.
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Unknown A
License the way that it works is you have a master and you have a sync. And so master would be like if I were to let's say I invented the song Happy Birthday and I song Happy Birthday it would be the melody and the actual like notes in the order that they their re played. And then the sync would be me record a synchronization license that would be me recording it. And the reason that it was kind made. I actually don't know this. I would assume that the reason it was made that way is for the label to own the synchronization license becausee they were paying in the 1950s and 60s all the money it would take to record something and duplicate the albums. And then the master, by law I can't sell the master to anybody of a song like that is by law I have to own.
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Unknown A
That's just how copyright works. I can't.
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Unknown B
This also helps some. You can own performances of like copyright free music, right. So if I were to perform a Beethoven song, even though I have a master license to it, I can own my performance of it basically.
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Unknown A
And so when you negotiate a license, like for example if I don't know a Colgate ad wanted to license one of my songs, they negotiate both the master and the SN separately. And so for example, in classically Pink Foyd doesn't license songs anywhere, especially ads but they don't seem to license. And so in the Departed they have Comfortably Numb sung by like some weird indie band or. Or something where it's just like. And it's kind of jarring because you're like the song works with the scene but not this version of it.
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Unknown B
I fucking hate that song. I'm gonn be honest. I love the Departed. I didn't even realize was it's that when they go to like the Leo and the lady go to bang, right?
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Unknown A
Yeah, I think yeah, it's like the montage of the Baneeah.
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Unknown B
Damn. I didn't know there was a cover band but Maybe have'ably enough. Y the thing on the melody thing. Okay, fuck. I use a bad example. There was one. Is it I suck it Pop music and culture. Is it Ed Sheern? Is that. That's the real name? Edan. Ed Sheeran. Didn't he have a song where somebody was like arguing over, like a melody maybe?
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Unknown C
Yes, quite recently.
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Unknown B
Yeah. She said. Yeah.
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Unknown A
A classic one is Coldplay and Joes Satriani Flying in a Blue Dream from JoeSatriani and Coldplay. It was the whatever. Bypo that one.
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Unknown B
I just bring up the concept, not necessarily case in particular, but like, for some reason, because from music you can tease out the individual parts and then play them in such an isolated way and somebody go like, oh, yeah, that's definitely coyright Infringement. But for film, where you do a whole bunch of like, inspired by shots that will be like frame by frame, like ye we call like a quotation. Maybe film, they call it quot as well. Like nobody would ever think, like, I'm suing him for that sequence. Copy that. But in music, it's like a totally different set of rules, which is very annoying.
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Unknown C
Yeah.
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Unknown A
And it's kind of funny too, because there's like, in jazz, it seems very, very different. Like when I've played in trios or something like that, you often meet the people that you're playing with for the first time at the show and then you just open up your real book or fake book, which is a whole other copyright thing that'too boring to get into. But. But okay, let's play Autumn Leaves. Okay. Ye. Let's play Summertime. Okay. Giant steps and like these. And that's just kind of the norm. It's just kind of cool to play other people's music and you interpret it in your own ways and not too many people get sued. Then you have like the Coldplay Jos Satriani thing where it could easily be argued, like, I highly doubt that Coldplay was listening to some 80s Jo. If you, you know, Joes Satriani is.
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Unknown B
He's like a amazing guitar player.
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Unknown A
Yeah, he'but very like hair rock. Y very. I can't imagine Cold place, sit around, listen and Joseph. But they probably heard it before and it's a catchy melody. And. And so when they were writing that song, it sounded right. And it's like, is that actually going to result. Is that actually going to result in Josatriani losing sales? Is anybo going to say, you know what? Fuck that joesriani song. The Coldplay song has the Same notes in the consecutive order. I don't even like guitar anymore. Nobody's doing that. It's just an insane argument. Yeah. It's just complete absurdity when you actually break it down.
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Unknown B
I think he also lose something. I. You lose a lot in the world. Like, there's a world where. Where Nine Inch Nails. I should know the guy where he doesn't license the song to Johnny Cash or whatever.
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Unknown A
Ye.
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Unknown B
Yeah, yeahah. Where you don't have like these. Because some. These remains it up really cool. And then I know you wonder like, what would like Star Wars Episode 1 look like if Quentin Tarantino had made his own version? Like five years Africa. There's really weird, crazy stuff that. That could never ever happen. Because of all the copy. It would be a nightmare to negotiate it. Or like, sometimes ips. What was it? I'm using superhero Star Wars. Like, was it Spider Man? That was like an IP Hell forever. Because like, Sony owned the rights to it, but they didn't want toa be any movies with it. And it was all this, like. It's just.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
It's not serving the public. We're also serving the artistic community. The end of the day, it's like serving a very niche set of very old owners.
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Unknown A
It's like, come on, musicians. One thing that I run into a lot is musicians saying, this person stole this. So I wrote the song, I'm trying to hire a producer, but I'm really scared that they're gonna steal my song idea. And I just think it's a ludicrous. It's just like to actually worry about that as if, like, okay, one of my favorite examples when thinking about this type of thing, let's say, okay, we. We'll play a little game. So we're in a casino together, the three of us, and for some fucking weird reason, I'm bankrolling you. And so I give you each $100 and you bet 50. You both. What's your favorite number? Or what would you bet on? Roette?
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Unknown C
Favorite number?
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Unknown A
Pick a number.
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Unknown B
420.
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Unknown C
32.
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Unknown A
Okay. 32. Okay. So let's just say you pick 20 because they don't have four. 20. Okay. You both put money down. Roulette wheel spins, it lands on two. So you both lose. How upset are you from 1 to 10 that you lost that 50 bucks that I gave you?
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Unknown C
Not very, because you gave it to me.
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Unknown A
From 1 to 10, give me a score.
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Unknown B
2, 3.
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Unknown A
Okay, now we are a little bit. Just be different by way. Now I distract you and I say, oh, hey, look at that waiter. You look funny. And the wheel spins again. But you didn't put the money down this time. And it lands on your numbers 32 and 20. How ma are you from 1 to 10 now?
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Unknown C
Because I missed it.
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Unknown A
You missed it like a five.
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Unknown B
Probably would beat the shit out. Who ever bet on my number again. You want it instead of me.
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Unknown A
So you're both more upset when you didn't lose anything. You're more upset when you broke even than you were when you lost Mike. That's the fun the of loss version. And it's so weird because that's what drives a lot of IP arguments is people believing that if somebody used something that they made that they feel it as if they're actually being damaged by it. And some. I think personally that if you've ever been dumped before, it feels worse than any other feeling. Like it's worse than sometimes'even worse than someone close to you dying because you just can't process it. You end up in, like, feedback loops in your brain. And it's because, like, if you got dumped a thousand years ago, you'd die if your family was just like, I don't love you anymore by, you're done for. And so we have this, like, massive abandonment complex that we just evolved with.
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Unknown A
And I feel like it's abused by casinos. It's abused by businesses like this. How many businesses do you go to where you know they have to tell you that a deal is going to expire tomorrow, you have to act now on it. And it's like, that's really powerful stuff. And it really. It abuses that visceral fear of abandonment that we just interpret as anxiety and death. It's really crazy.
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Unknown C
Yeah, it'like a pleb consumer of music. I feel like the main feelings that I get when I hear artists quibbling over, like, small melody sections. They feel very gross. Like, I just. It just makes me dislike whatever artist is suing when, like, families of deceased artists do this. It makes me really. I think it's just greedy and gross. But I can understand it if, like, somebody does a cover of your song and people want to listen to the COVID more than want to listen to your song. That I could see an argument for, like, that is kind of taking away from you. Like, now you are kind of getting screwed if this person who covered your song just did a slightly better version of it that people tend to prefer more.
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Unknown B
Think also about what you're saying there, though. You want to deprive the whole world of something better. That could exist because you happen to write it first.
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Unknown C
I agree. I agree that it's like anti creativity, but I can also understand musicians themselves being frustrated.
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Unknown B
You don't like to fact your girlfriend dating a guy with a bigger dick in you. Now you're gonn fucking kill her. That's what it. You're killing her because you can't'here's a.
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Unknown A
Good example, here's a good devil'advocate argument. Years ago I had a very close friend committit suicide. I wrote music. I tried to like write music that helped my feelings and helped me cope and get past it. And one of those songs was pretty popular. It's called we are alone in a City and it's instrument I actually recorded vocals on if I took the vocals out, released it as an instrumental song and a few years later someone decided that they wanted to sing over that was the perfect instrumental music for them to sing over. And they asked me if they could license it and was like offering like dollar or something. And I said no, I really just don't want to just know at the time I probably would say yes to anything now. But then I was just like no, I don't really want to.
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Unknown A
And they said, well, I'm going toa do it anyway. And so they did anyway. And this person really just had an idea of it like lined up with gay marriage being made legal and they just made it into a theme song about gay marriage being legal is a good thing. And it's fucking bad singing. It's just the whole thing, it really makes me nauseated to hear it's just like. Just the way they turned it into a different thing. I mean it really just sounds like howling over that. Like it's just really not a good piece of music. And I for a while held the opinion that I'm not gonna release another piece of music. I was so offended and pissed off. But eventually I realized that like it's not about me, like it's not about my feelings. Like I should't have released it that like I should have ve deleted it like the moment I made it.
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Unknown A
If it was about only about my own therapy or my own feelings.
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Unknown B
There's a name for this. I don't think it's. It might be Death of the Artist, it's the concept. But it's like I think that if somebody wants to have a thing like that, I think that's totally fine and I get it. But the second you release your child creatively LA of the Wild anybody can listen to it and that Song that might have been the most important, passionate song ever. Some teenage kid might be playing his car to get laid with some fucking. Yeah, yeah. You have no idea.
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Unknown A
Lose control. So I feel like anybody watching this should look up the song because there's another chapter to this that's quite hilarious. I moved down here, I met a friend of a friend. And it was this friend who's just like, oh, I really like your music. I listen to your music for a couple years. I really like it. I love that one song that sounds like everybody's kung fu fighting. And. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I realized I use the exact same notes and melody, just much slower in this, like, super emotional song that sounds like, you know, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And it's like the exact same really thing. Yeah. And that's. And so I completely ripped that off accidentally for this like, super emotional thing. And then like had a little tantrum because somebody else sang over it.
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Unknown A
And that's the story of intellectual property in music.
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Unknown B
It s it way darker. He said there was a funny twist kind of or something was. I was thinking like, that guy's friend committed suicide and he recorded Emotional Fun'okay. Well, now I'm recording my fucking cover on France Rightsite over. It's gonna be real bad.
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Unknown A
Yeah, it's a cursed melody.
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Unknown C
Yeah, it's very. It's actually kind of interesting because I feel like one of my favorite things about. I don't know if you're super familiar with like ancient Hebrew, like writings and stuff.
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Unknown A
So much I love it. That's why I have it t written all over my work.
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Unknown C
It's actually covering the walls right now.
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Unknown A
It's kind of like an insane song.
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Unknown C
Like a seance just everywhere. Des.
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Unknown A
Blood. Blood. Yeah.
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Unknown C
But they. They would often they would have kind of these philosophical battles back and forth, like the Sadducees and the Pharisees and whatnot. And so they would like constantly quote each other and take scripts from like different parts of like the Talmud and stuff. And they would be writing over top one another. But like their. Their poetry and their art and their philosophical musings were all quotations of each other. But it was this ever growing living kind of dialogue of writing. And it's really cool. Like philosophy kind of does this or to some degree even like science, like seeing people citing each other and quoting each other and like building and building and building on top of one another that like, I never even pictured would be something that music isn't even able to do. Because of ip, which is like crit. Because it's like if any, if anything should be doing that and like self referencing itself and growing and being this like living thing.
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Unknown A
Yeah, proably.
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Unknown C
Should be the arts.
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Unknown A
No, I mean it's interesting. Like a great something I just. In the video I'm working on now, something I'LIKE a big part of it is how silly it is to attack a scientist's reputation or anybody who's claiming to be a scientist, anybody who's contributing data. How silly it is to even care about their reputation. Because the whole point of scientific methodology is to produce data that's useful or not. And other than that there's literally no other conversation to have. And so the stuff with. You always see Bill Nye the science guy being dragged through mud because he's not a real scientist, even though he's like a published. Yeah, yeah, he's.
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Unknown C
He's the most prolific researcher in the world.
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Unknown A
Yeah. But the thing is there shouldn't really even be a prolific researcher ideally where funding and reputation doesn't matter to get a job. Ideally science at its highest purest form would exist with anonymous paper writers. Because the reason we invented scientific method is to reduce human bias. So anonymize the paper so you remove any of the bias on then LA.
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Unknown B
England Journal of Medicine should be AB board on 4chan.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown C
There is actually a push to start anonymizing, at least in peer review, so that when papers get peer reviewed, the peer reviewers cannot know who the authors are at all. Because there's a lot of evidence that. Yeah, if you're an ADHD researching C like Stephven Farin, you're just more likely to be like, yeah, that's a good paper.
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Unknown A
Exactly. Yeah. And like there's even like triple blind studies where the actual doctors looking at the data and stuff don't know which it is. They're just sort of. It's just boring writing down results and you don't have any sort of.
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Unknown C
Would Taylor Swift perform as well if her music was anonymized and listeners just had to listen to it?
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Unknown A
I don't really know that much about Taylor Swift outside of like the economic impact of her work, other than the fact that she increased inflation in Sweden or whatever. But I mean, it is kind of interesting to think about what music would be like if there was no artist name. This is funny too because I have some albums out that are just white label. Like I just released them as white label. And like there is no artist name ages ago. Right. When like when you could still sell vinylet shows and tour and stuff and. Yeah, and I have no idea if they did well or not. I kind of don't care.
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Unknown B
I feel like that work well for some genres, but for other ones who become pointless, like for anything involving a singer you're probably always going to know, but for electronic stuff, you know. Have you heard of Burial?
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Unknown A
Yeah. Oh yeah.
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Unknown B
The story behind that guy, if I remember, was very interesting. So this is back when the. I think a stuff was considered like dubstep or just two steps.
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Unknown A
I don't remembereial I to say Burial is like the originator of dubstep.
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Unknown B
But'burial okay, yeah, very earlyuce. It was basically a guy, I think we eventually find out, like years and years later, like some random dude in England or whatever. But this guy nobody knows who is like dumped somewhere on the Internet. Like this album that's just like one of the sickest fucking like those early decs was like all time ide really innovative, really amazing.
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Unknown A
And to this day like going the music. So like when people make music, they make it in digital audio workstation like Cathel Studio or Pre Hoops or Cubase or Tools Racks and Rac. Yeah, of course, of course. So back in the day, I mean, they still have them, but they're just like waveform editors. Like if you take the audio off of this lav mike and look at the waveform, that's how it makes music in those editors. Like he literally pastes things in and there is no like timeline or metronome or anything like that. And that's how he got that sound. But the fact that he just refused to do it the right way is like what earned him the accolade of like inventing an entire genre that now everybody tries to sound like and yeah'just taking like weird again though, like a great IP argument.
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Unknown A
Like he just takes things from other places and then auto tunes it in a certain way and then does that and it just turns sounds completely different. And yes, probably if somebody actually went through it with a fineootth comb, he could be sued. But like nobody's actually losing anything from it. But yeah, Burial'great.
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Unknown C
Burial.
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Unknown B
Yeah, Burial.
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Unknown C
You gu say burial.
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Unknown A
Weird. Burial.
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Unknown B
Burial.
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Unknown A
What do you say? Burial.
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Unknown C
Burial. There's you in there, isn't there?
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Unknown B
Yeah, but.
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Unknown C
So, okay, just figured I would say it, but'fine.
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Unknown B
Real. There's a view in blue, but you don'isn't.
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Unknown A
This a gher? Isn't this a galagher sketch? Like the guy who beats the shit out of watermelon or whatever. The comedian.
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Unknown B
What?
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Unknown A
You know what I'm talking about. Do you know who Galher is? I feel old right now. You know who Galager is, right?
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Unknown B
Wait, no.
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Unknown A
He's baldy, has hair around here.
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Unknown C
I was thinking of Chel 5. Andrew Gallagher. Is that the same Channel 5? It's not the samean this Gallagher is.
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Unknown A
A comedian who used to just like, just take water. Like you would tell jokes and then take watermelons and put them on stage and then hit them with hammers.
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Unknown C
Is this gonna tie back to the U?
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Unknown A
Yes. Okay. No, but he has this sketch that's like about the word how weird English is. I don't know if he was like beating the shit out of watermelons while he was talking about this. It would kind of be. It would actually be brilliant if you would. Because I be very confusing if he did. He're talking about like the word comb. Like home and then womb and then tomb and then like bomb. Like, you know, just like where the beast Silence sometimes in oa. But anyway, it kind of reminded me of that minus the watermelon that we got there.
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Unknown C
I was like, I'm passing out there.
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Unknown B
Somebody posted a thing on Reddit. Just recommn all these random things and I'mnn do scroll at the moment and God, I wish I remember what the senencese was, but it was something like. It was something along the line like everyone in the United States. Everyone in the United States is happy with something or whatever. And the thread title was like, why did they put is here? And then I realized it was like an English second language thing. And it was like I was looking at the sentence, I was like, I have no idea.
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Unknown C
And.
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Unknown B
And then it was like, because we have words that are for multiple groups of people, but it's like singular word. So I would say like, like John and Jane are happy. But I would say like Philadelphia is. Yeah, but that's singular wayit. That didn't work there. There's ways where it works and it doesn't work. Fuck. Cut that up too. Oh, God.
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Unknown A
Fuck.
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Unknown B
There are examples in the comments. They're all goingna like, oh, desin was absolly right. Who's thinking this, that of that?
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Unknown A
Yeah, and that's gon toa increase your engagement, which is gonna help the algorithm. You're gonna make like 12.
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Unknown B
Okay, conc. Okay, wait. Something more concrete'second. Thing up. You know that there's an order for the adjectives that you use when you describe things. And intuitively, we all know this. Even don't think anyone'ever learned it in school.
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Unknown C
Yeah.
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Unknown B
So you would never ever say like, like if I, if I were say oh my God, that was, that was a red huge dog. It'd be very.
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Unknown A
That's interestingize. Now I kind of want to do that. I kind of want to learn how to do it the opposite.
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Unknown B
Oppositeeeah.
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Unknown C
You'll probably just like confuse like I want. I bet you people won't know specifically what's going on that weirds them out. But they get like slight uncanny value with you when you talked.
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Unknown A
Yeah, that's's really what I aim for in general. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. It's not completely the same thing, but I. Someone once told me that they were going to go wash their teeth. It was a Puerto Rican person. And they're like I'm going to go wash my teeth. And I was like. And I wanted to correct them, but I'm like, you're totally right. Like you're probably more right than what brushing would. Brush doesn't necessarily mean what's happening ultimately.
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Unknown C
Language acquisition in the brain, like the language centers of our brains are like one of my favorite neuroscience stuff. Have you seen any of the. Since going into neoscience. I know that s somewhat of an interest for you as well. Have you seen any of the papers looking at language acquisition centers and technology in young kids?
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Unknown A
No. Are you like referring to playing a video game in like an iPad?
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Unknown C
A two year old.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown C
A lot of the centers that like 2 year olds are using to pick up language, especially syntax. Right. Which is these things we can't really describe. We just know that it's a huge red dog, not a red huge dog. Are getting triggered when little kids are playing with technology. Which is why when you see like a 2 year old they often have better UI like knowledge. Like they just kind ofuitive understand how to use it better than like their grandparent does.
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Unknown B
Right. Or even before Nathan could like read all the words when he had like an iPad, he could go to all the things like in Minecraft and like if you ever give a kid, I don't know what it is, maybe it's you'like a three or four year old. Like any type of electronic device, they will figure out in like 50 seconds, like how to charge to a card, they'll get to the pay menu and they'll start buying shit. I mean I don't know how I.
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Unknown A
Yeah, it's almost as if it's developed that way. It's almost as if there's a motive to inter.
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Unknown B
Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown C
Anyways, I just think it's. I don'technology. And how it's like, affecting us developmentally is super fascinating topic.
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Unknown A
Yeah, well, I mean, I feel like the older you get, the more you get used to a certain ui. I mean, it's like asking somebody'use a PC their entire life to use a macro, vice versa, and they just have a terrible time.
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Unknown C
It'like it's probablyd to asking somebody who's like, used to the syntax of North American English to start speaking with a different syn. Just, it's gonna be really difficult. You can learn it, but it'll be tricky.
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Unknown B
One thing that's interesting on kind of like this thing, I guess I'm curious. A long time ago there were. I don't know any of these things, and I'm not being. When I say long time ago because maybe you remember these things. Do you remember when they were like, I'm cur for long time. I'BUT you know how, like before. So, okay, so, audience, long time ago, if you wanted to produce any kind of sounds, you needed like racks and racks and racks of gear to do it. And nowadays, like the digital audio workstations everybody uses, like when you see a little a VST or a little plugin or whatever, that used to be like a whole physical machine, but back, back when music was made that way, there are like, machines that, like, everybody has, like, everybody knows this keyboard sound. Everybody knows this certain machine and there are sounds that are like, oh, this is like the 80s.
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Unknown B
And people know that's this keyboard using this. Everybody knew it. And back then it feels like having that stuff and these recognizable sounds, like, really cool. When the digital audio workstation started to show up and earlier when they were more separate about their features, people could tell immediately, like, this guy's using El Studio. Like, I know that, like, default sound. Like, what a loser. What an idiot. Seem like you wanted to branch out more and have more. Yeah. Individual sounding stuff.
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Unknown A
It's almost infuriateting because I feel like a good half of the new VST plugins or VST synthesizers that come out on computers are emulating older pieces of gear that already have 50 plugins that already emulated. And then you also have a huge portion of music gear that's emulating previous gear that came out. It's always just kind of like, it's not easy to do. To recreate something, especially with like a circuit board on a 20, 25 synthesizer is endlessly different than a circubo board on a 1975 synesizer or something's like completely two different worlds. And so it's just like why wouldn't you just make a new thing? Why wouldn't you just innovate it? But anyway, that's my own tangent. But no, it's interesting how pieces of gear defined entire genres. The T3 there's a Rolland TB303 which is a little silver box that was meant to replace bassists in the late early 80s when it kind of came anyway.
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Unknown A
So didn't very hard to program. You had like no music theory to program it adeptly. Which people were like I't want to read notes and then figure out which note means what it'a little analog box. And it didn't really work out that well for that purpose. And then they started end just going into resale shops and stuff. And then in South Chicago a couple different people just simultaneously started playing with them. They bought them for a few dollars from got a hand me down from their parents or something and then mixed it with Chicago House. And that was like the birth of Asset House like its entire genre just putting in random sequences into these things. And they had like a really weird sequencer that at the time was supposed to sound like a real bassist to someone. But it ended up just sounding really odd and liquidy and strange.
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Unknown C
Is there a song that you can think of that's really popular that it has like that sound really distinctly?
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Unknown A
Just sure what it sounds like. What would be like the most popular assid house song? Josh Winks Are you there is like a classic one but if you just search like tv303tv303 like you'll find endless entire. There's still songs today. Oh okay. Luke Viber I love acid is a great example and you could hear it there. But yeah, I mean's the TR808's another one. That's another old rolling box that defined a lot of hip hop. It's sort of. It's still used all the time. Not the actual old unit but the samples from it and stuff.
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Unknown B
Do you have any strong opinions about especially sequencing drums? I just want to know if that was what you were do. Yeah, there's a lot of math Rocky. Really good guitar players on YouTube and they never for some reason nobody can play drums. I guess they all end up like sequencing drums. Do you Haveron any of that?
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Unknown A
So when I first started playing, when I first started my first drum machine was a Dr. 660 and the drums that I Like the drummers that I loved were like Buddy Rich and like these like crazy jazz drummers. And in my brain at the time I was like, I bet this drum machine could play crazier solos and Buddy Rich can. And so I was step programming that like you basically you could go down to like the 32nd and 64th and 128th notes and you could step program those things. But it doesn'sound right. It doesn't sound like a real.
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Unknown B
But just as the thing like I don't think I would feel safe being near you and within like five miles of any jazz department with you saying like I could program Bodyy Rich into a machine. Perussion tell you were saying that because. Because jazz people say this and I mean there's. Jazz is a lot about like feel and it's not necessarily like strict time and strict all they do play in time and rhythm. But like a guy will say some shit like that, but she want never play in the pocket or whatever. Yeah, there's like a lot ofreah.
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Unknown A
Out of the few things that I've watched just to not have any bias. It was you tricking him with wine. That was juice.
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Unknown B
It was real wine.
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Unknown A
No. Didn't you give him juice and you're like, no, that's literally juice. That's why you like it?
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Unknown C
No, no, it was wine. It was just basically juice wine.
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Unknown A
Oh, okay.
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Unknown C
It was 5% wine.
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Unknown B
Oh, who's strike now?
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Unknown A
Yikes. Yeah. Wow. W the tables have turned.
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Unknown B
Felt they should echolocated that alcohol. Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown A
Good.
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Unknown B
Thanks. Okay. What were you talking about?
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Unknown C
Echoocation from the makes. It was important music. Something about music.
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Unknown B
You guys were saying words, the rolland.
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Unknown C
Things but I didn't understand.
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Unknown A
Yeah, the wr things.
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Unknown B
Oh, I was just remarking it was funny. It would be very funny to walk into a jazz like, oh, I recreated Buddy Rich on like the strum machine.
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Unknown A
I think jazz is in the last since jazz is death, which people refer to it as just because it stopped being popular now. It got more popular but now it's like lo fi jazz, which isn't really. It's. I don't want to be like a gatekeeper. It's all fine, but it's just not like jazz standards. It's just a little differentaz.
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Unknown B
Imagine being an elitist and then because you just want to hear somebo you play fucking real book all day.
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Unknown A
Okay, well, I really can't stand and this is like a problem on YouTube as well. Like this sort of elitist white guy explaining how complex jazz is to People. Because jazz is really. It's really just doing what you want and how. It's not really all that complicated. I mean, it can be if you study something to death, but so.
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Unknown C
So how do you guys feel about, like, pop or plei. Generic. That's really popular. Do you have negative feelings toward it as music people?
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Unknown A
I'm not that familiar with most of, like, the pop songs that come up. Some d. Aiba.
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Unknown C
You wouldn't know du.
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Unknown A
No, I wouldn't. Yeah. I'm just, like, the first time I have a blink. Nothing. I was gonna mention some artists that, like, I actually like their songs, but now I can't remember their names, but. Blinding lights. Something west. It was a really big song.
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Unknown B
The weekend.
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Unknown A
The weekendersend weekend. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's a good song. That's in my head quite often. I'm a fan of Kanye. Wow. Cool. Movesaking in. I'm a fan of Kanye. Not politically or anything, but I'm a fan of what he's contributed. What I like about Kanye is that he. He really is kind of like the modern curator. Like, he really actually does put a lot of work into curating an album through a bunch of different people, which is, like, pretty cool concept. That's not something I would have thought of to do.
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Unknown C
Feel like whenever I talk to, like, music students, I feel like they. I thought there's two types. There's like, the chill music student who's like, yeah, jazz is, like, really cool, and I really appreciate it. But I also, like, get why, like, a lot of people don't really care that much about jazz. And then there's, like, the other music students that are like, jazz is everything.
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Unknown B
I think this happens to everybody that studies any art form. You get, like, cool people who, like, if you study film, if you study music, it should just open up your appreciation for things, I think. But when people use it, like, as a way to be, like, very snooty or look down on other people, I think it's kind of cringe.
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Unknown C
I also think. I'm not gonna lie. There's just a lot of jazz. Some jazz is really good, and then some jazz sounds like. But, like, it just sounds.
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Unknown A
But you're describing every genre of music.
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Unknown C
Yeah, I know. But then there's this mute. There's so much jazz that sounds like ass. And then I'll listen to music students talk about it and're like, oh, my gosh, it's so good. And I'm like, yeah, it sounds terrible, Sou'complex and incredible. It also Sounds like trash.
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Unknown A
So in the late 1800s, France is like going through its impressionist movement with Debussy and Ravel, who I'm definitely not pronouncing right now, sat all these. And like, the chords are like, you know, seventh chords, ninth chords, 11th chords. Things are starting to get pretty. The shapes are starting to get pretty complex in what we would describe now. And then all of a sudden, out of New Orleans, where more than half the population spoke French at the time due to the massive amount of French immigration happening there, we have this weird new music where maybe instead of Boeing, the double bass, we're plucking it and we have pretty much all the same instruments and we have these seventh chords and ninth chords and 11th courtly and all these weird. And there's a little bit more rhythm in it now, which one might say could be part of Haitian immigration and vodoo rhythms and things like that.
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Unknown A
And now it's this new type of music called jazz that immediately gets made illegal in a lot of parts of the country. And we were talking about this earlier that the song Summertime, it was played by Gershwin in Carnegie hall. And it was like the modern, best classical music thing at the time. And Louis Armstrong could only perform it in brothels because it was illegal to play jazz. And it became very clear that the music was almost identical, except black people played jazz and white people played classical music. And that they're really, in my opinion, like modern classical music is just jazz. It'it just evolved in that direction. Classical music always evolved in some direction, and it evolved in that one. And it was just the weird sort of imperialistic gatekeeping that kept people. No, classical music has this structure in this. And jazz is this.
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Unknown A
And anyway, that's my theory on the whole thing. I don't actually see that much of a difference in it. I just think that classical music got less formal where like a bassist now, rather than having to read notes and play an old thing perfectly, now they can improvise.
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Unknown B
And there's also something that's difficult when people are considering music is when you say something is complex, I think that complexity. People say something is complex, but what they really mean is they just don't have. They don't have the artistic vocabulary developed for it to understand it. Because all of these things that started to become. That started to come into existence were like products of the time. Assuming we're talking about the stuff that would be popularly played and would appear meaning not necessarily stuff that is like, requested or commissioned by kings or queens. Alough Even that as a music music at the time that people at the time, we hear this because it's like the natural evolution of basically what came exactly before it. And I think that this actually maps onto probably almost everything artistically to where I wish you could do this. Obviously, it'sossible suck people out from the past.
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Unknown B
But if you were to take somebody from the earliest parts of silent film and you would show them sequences like in a Transformers movie, I'm not even sure if they would know what they're seeing. Of course. And there are so many things that we take for granted, like the fact that a camera can move during a shot, or the fact that camera could be in the sky, or that it might not even be real, that nothing is real about this. But all of us, we see it and we immediately understand exactly what's on the camera. We know exactly because we hear the sound effects and we know that what we expect. And so we'll watch a movie. That stuff like the Transformers and maybe Film Buster people will get things. It stuff like the Transform is incredibly visually complicated material, insanely complicated, but like, we treated as like basic loser stuff.
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Unknown B
That's actually not like even advanced film. But the vocabulary is just such a development as you can sing so much media Ye.
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Unknown A
I had this moment in my life when I was. I went to a theater when I was a theater. I like I'm an old man, but yeah, I went to see a movie, a Terminaor 2, when I was like 12 or something like that. And I got to see without knowing what to expect. I got to see the T1000 or whatever, the T2000, walk through the bars. And it was like the first time I've ever seen 3D animation. And I didn't know what 3D animation was. I didn't understand. And like, I remember the whole audience, like, I clearly remember the whole audience being like, like what? And it was just. It was actual magic. Like, it was that, you know, it's kind of interest a bit. So imagine showing somebody or whatever playing Skrillex for, like, somebody in 1950. They'd just be like, what's happening?
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Unknown A
I don't get it. But yeah, the same thing. The funny thing about Harmony is like, well, not funny. The amazing thing, and probably the reason I'm a musician in the first place is because. And since we were talking about language syntax and English and stuff, you have to quantify things in language. Like you have to say, I'm upset because of my past, or I'm upset with this thing that happened, or I'm sad or I'm depressed. And you have to quantify. You have to, like, slide your emotions into these little slots. And to me, it feels like music just goes around it. Like, you don't have to quantify anything. But the thing you lose there is that I can't tell you. I can't tell you a story. I can't play a song and tell you that I went to a grocery store yesterday and bought yogurt.
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Unknown A
But I can tell you how I felt when I was at the grocery store. And I can't tell you that perfectly in English. And it's like this alternate thing that I think to me might be a little bit more powerful. And to me, what makes an expert musician is to be able to speak that. And so, like, if you're a baby at a piano, the only thing you can really say is, I'm excited or I'm not excited, just wa you or not. And then, like, maybe later you could be like, happy, silly, sad, slow. And then. And eventually you could describe despair. You could describe feeling alone or feeling crowded or all these things. And that's really what's so beautiful about music. That's what makes it magical to me.
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Unknown C
Do you think that there's a certain level of. Because one thing you're talking about the evolution of the vocabulary of music, which I think is a really interesting way of analogizing it. You. Have you ever rock climbed before anything like that? Or watch rock climbers? Sure. It's interesting to watch us for it. Like, if you watch free solo and then you start climbing and then you watch free solo again, you're like, this changes everything. Like, I already thought it was impressive, and now that I'm climbing, I know how impressive this is. Do you think that when you're talking about this evolution of vocabulary. Because I'm kind of of two minds with music, where music is really unique in that kind of. In a lot of ways, everyone can tap into it. It's a really universally emergent thing. But also, there's a lot of music that I wonder maybe part of why m jazz sounds like trash is because I have, like a super low.
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Unknown C
Like I have a plep ear when it comes to this stuff. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you know which one it is? Do you lean towards one of these things?
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Unknown A
I mean, I would never describe it as a pleavir. I mean, maybe when I was, like, younger, it would be. I don't think people were using the word ple back then. So I'stupid ear. A gay, you know, Veryin. Yeah, something say in the 90s. But I mean I toured with Dyinger Escape Plan for example. If they're familiar with them, that's Math Rock. Like they're kind of the kings of like math Rock. Like the most complicated metal that you can make is Dillinger Escape Plan. And I was very not familiar with that type of music when I started touring with them. And I remember it was like a big deal to be brought on their tour. They mentioned my name on like Headbanger's Ball and MTV and stuff and I was like oh, it was a big deal. And I listened to some of their music and I was like the crowd is going to tear my head off and eat it like there.
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Unknown A
The crowd was very open minded but I just, I couldn't process all their music. And by the end of the tour, every single show, in the beginning of it I was like on the tour bus when they played becausee it was just like kind of too much sensory overload at the end of it. Every single show I was up on the rapters on the stage watching them after I played. Cause it was like mind blowing how good they were and. And to this day I think it's the best live rock show I've ever seen in my life. Like that they played. It just took that time to get used to it. Which brings us a little bit back to like this playlistification and Spotify and like algorithmic way that we listen to music now where maybe the reason why people have such a pley with certain things is because they're not forced to give something a chance.
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Unknown A
They don't like it, they go the next one. They sort of treat. They sort of treat. They treat music the way that people treat Tinder or something. They're just sort of like swiping it out. She'll get a good spot.
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Unknown B
I do think that something for music is. It's become a lot more accessory like background or in service of something else un. Less the focus. And I think that when something has moved to a background place like that I think it dramatically changes the way that we engage with it. Which then also dramatically changes the way and artist will engage with it. I've heard, I mean one just by virtue of technology there's music in so many places now that there wasn't before. You can walk around listening music on AirPods or obviously it's in your car in like a million different ways and it'it's everywhere. And then like what music is supposed to do or how we envision music being as a part of a movie because of like, digital editing techniques. I don't know if you've heard the roundtable of Think Kumr and a bunch of other like, really big Hollywood music guys are complaining about this concept of like town music where director.
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Unknown B
Because now they've got digital editing. And editing is very freick and easy where they'll edit before they have the composers actually create songs for them. But they're editing along to a song that they like from another movie.
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Unknown A
I've been temp music. It's kind of funy. I've been on that. Like, I've had my music used as temp music before.
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Unknown B
So top music is like, let's say I really like this cool battle track from like the Gladiator. When you're cutting, when you're editing film, right? Going from one camera to the next or one shot to the next, there's a rhythm that you develop. And it's oftentimes it's working really well. With this. He's gonna shot my line up really well. You're building well. And what happens is once you've edited this thing and the director likes it now he's like, this is good. And I like this. Then you go to your composer and you go, I want you to make music to this. But the composer has to recreate basically what the director has already cut to. And now with the composer gives the director something that was not what the director kind was listening to as he was working on this edit from the tem. He''listen to.
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Unknown B
It's like impossible to work with. So there's a lot of like, soundtracks where you listen to them. These songs are like almost mirror copies of songs from like action movies 10, 15 years earlier. Because the director was cutting into those soundtracks because we liked them so much.
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Unknown C
I have always wondered how they go back and forth with movies. How do they film a scene and put it to music? Do they make the scene and then give it to composer?
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Unknown A
Or do.
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Unknown C
Does a composer make the music and.
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Unknown A
Then they build this classically the way that it's supposed to work. Wait, what?
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Unknown B
Somebody's not recording. I just saw that one was off.
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Unknown A
I am. Oh, good. I'm glad it was on your side. So at least you could, I think.
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Unknown B
Because I check this every now and then. Okay. Okay.
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Unknown A
Coolick on there's classically the way that it should work. Where the way that. I'm sure some movies work a little bit differently, but classically, I would ask for picturelo lock. And that's like in your contract, which means that it's edited and they're not going to change it. And then you're writing music to that because if they change it then you have to rewrite everything and re record a new orchestra and all that. But for ages I wrote music for ads. In fact, that was a good way for me to not care about the music I wre or how it worked with people buying the albums and it could be more creative and do whatever I wanted. And then I made the music through ads. And like half of the big ads that would come down always had a reference track where they'd have a YouTube song or something like that and be like, we want song like this.
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Unknown A
But like you, we can't afford the U2 song. And so they wouldn't say it. But what they were saying is get it as close to the song as possible without getting us sued. That's basically what we want. But really what they would be doing is they would be buying an option by paying a composer two grand to buy an option just to add to basically because YouTube would want $100,000 and they'd say, well, we have this other song that sounds just like it and that's our other option, so how about 50,000? And they would like do it. And that's like the way they would do negotiation. And it got to the point where I got so used to that where like sometimes I'GET an add and I d do have a ref. I just referred to as a ref. I like, do they have a ref?
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Unknown A
Can, can we get a ref? Because it was so much easier for me to hear something be like, oh, that's what they want. Cool, got it done. I'm go goingna finish this in an hour. Rather than thinking like for this dumb MasterCard commercial what kind of music should be in the car. But so'much easier that way. But yeah, I guess it all always circles back to aburd IP it comes to music. It's just like all of that just for this dumb system.
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Unknown B
I think going back to the FL ear thing, I think it's okay. The problem is like people make it seem like they're like better people because they developed some other type of taste. But I think that you can have a bad ear for a thing or a bad eye for a thing. There's I think, fundamentally two. Two different universes. You can talk when you talk about art, you can talk about whether or not you like it or you don't like it. And that is a wholly subjective your personal feelings on it. And then you can speak to the artistry of the technical aspect of it. Like, was this written appropriately for a French horn? Or is this like way out of range? Or was this a good way to utilize? And you could talk about this with respect to common practice or, you know, sonic characterics, whatever.
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Unknown B
But at the end of the day, whether you like or dislike something, we were talking earlier about, like, not remastering, but like having a 1.1 version of an album. There are albums. My girlfriend actually talked about this recently too. There was some Matthew rock band that she list to where they remastered an album. There are some of these albums, some of these older math rocky bands that I listened to and they're dog shape record albums. They're so bad. Like, the snare is clipping hard like on all the hits and it just sounds like fucking trash. But it's like it's a vibe.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
And you get that re recorded and then it's played again and it's like way cleaner. Like the music is good, but it's differentah. But like from a mastery perspective, maybe technically, like, everything is technically more correct how it was recorded, but from like a personal enjoyment. I like this stuff. I have memories associated with it. It hit better at the time.
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Unknown A
That's why it's kind of one thing I do know about Tayr Swift, that she's recorded her own stuff to own her own Master ST license. And yeah, and I'm surprised that that worked out as well as it did. Like, I'm surprised people weren't like, nah, the old one though. The new one doesn't really.
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Unknown C
Maybe you know the story though, behind her whole remasterings. I think that's a really big.
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Unknown A
I mean, I understand why she's doing it so she could own it because she's been in that battle for so long. I might are like, whatever. I can't decide for her. She could do whatever she wants. I would say that, like, if it were me, I might just be more concerned with making new music. I'd just be like, yeah, that sucks in it. Terrible. But like, I can also make money off my new music. Because if I were Tayr sw, there's.
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Unknown C
Like a whole lore. My friend is like a huge T Swifter. She like walked through this whole thing, but it's like they were doing a bunch of stuff with her music that she was genuinely not okay with. Which is part of why I think she remed it for like, old stuff. I don't remember all the Lore in detail, though.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown C
It's kind of an interesting story. If you ever want yeah's story.
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Unknown B
What do you think about. So I'm curiousus. I feel strongly about all the IP stuff that I've said that if you release to the world, it'whatever. It's not yours anymore. But I tried to test that. I think about what scarios. How would I feel? So obviously I'm like, Donald Trump's hate. I'm trying to think, like, how would I feel if there, like, is a political person, Hitler comes back to life. If Hitler's doing a rally and he's like, destiny made this one, one of these tracks, whatever. And I'JUST it's a banger. And we're gonna fucking marchgin and talk about how much we hate choose. I would look at that and be like, f this feels bad. Do you think there's any scenario where somebody's using your music in such a way where you're like, fuck no. Fuck, not this time.
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Unknown A
There was. Do you remember when Trump got Covid and then, like, had that weird video where the helicopter dropped him off and then flew away and he, like, walked up to the White House and, like, looked at the camera. Do you remember that? That weird, like, propaganda thing where, like, do you not remember this? I'm sor.
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Unknown B
You're not talking about where RGB died, right?
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Unknown A
No. So Trump got Covid.
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Unknown B
Okay?
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Unknown A
Remember that? Ok. And then he got out of hospital and then the helicopter flew back to the White House and there's his video. Hel. It's like this huge, like. I don't know. I mean, it sounds like a Hans Zimmer score or something. It's like this massive orchestral score. It's like very dramatic and ridiculous. And then he, like, you could tell he's coughing while he's like, walking slowly back to the white light. But he's like, trying to look strong. But he's likeh, God. And like, he literally looks. He literally looks like he's having a. Like, he's not. He looks like he's super sick. But I looked up that. So I did a content ID on that song because I was like, you know, and it comes from somebody who's put their music on a library somewhere. You in a music library? And his campaign probably paid like $1 or dollarill.
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Unknown A
I do it. And then I saw that person on Facebook being like, I can't control where my music gets put on. Really sorry, guys. Because, you know, people were like, hey, that's your song's. I don't know what I would do. I would probably just bitch about it on Threads or something, you know, or on Blue Sky. I would probably just complain about it and say that I don't endorse Donald Trump.
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Unknown B
It sucks because especially if you're making something that is with vocals and then it's like explicitly political. Say that you create the gayest friendly LGBT whatever song ever. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is blaring this at our next rally while they're talking about getting it. Yeah, yeah. It feel like. Feels like it would be bad. It would feel bad. But I guess at the end of.
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Unknown A
The won I do wonder what the. So this gets kind of fucky with AI because you can just clone somebody's voice and you could just be like, oh, and then you could sing a song in somebody else's voice. So now we're in a place where the Trump campaign could make a song ode to Donald Trump's brilliance sung by toilers Taylor Swift. And we're in a place where it's ambiguous whether she could sue for that or not. Whether she could. And that's really problematic's so weir that.
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Unknown C
IP and music is so intense and yet AI is like in this gray zone of ip, you don't own the right to your likeness, like your audio likeness. It's very od.
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Unknown A
So if you decided that you were going to upload a bunch of stuff to, I don't know, band camp or something in my voice and it was recognizable as my voice or something, and it just said a bunch of terrible things, that I abused children and I killed my dog, whatever else, I would absolutely. I think I would win a lawsuit if you did that. I think that that would be similar to like Nike saying, like putting me on a poster and saying, I only wear Nike shoes. I'm wearing Nike shoes. But yeah, I mean, in that I could sue Nike for using my image without my permission and saying something that's not true. But with music right now, AI music is not copyrightable, which. And that's sort of like where things are standing at the moment. But all the major labels are like smelling blood and trying to soothe the generative music sites.
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Unknown A
And I don't think they're going toa win. I don't think they really stand a chance. And I think a lot of it just has to do with our political climate right now and how pro tech it is and how tech just seems to win most of the things. And ultimately, what Spotify a tech company. People describe them as a music company, but it's really a tech company. It's an advertising tech company that used blitz scaling to take over the market share. They didn't really win fair and square. They subsidized our music listening experience with venture capital dollars. And now everybody can't imagine paying $15 or $10 for an album again and having to buy. All of them're just used to having unlimited music for a monthly fee. AI is attempting to do the same thing. It is a little bit more ambiguous. So I co founded a company called VoiceLoop that originally only worked with what exactly.
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Unknown A
We were talking about taking somebody's voice and using it. And the thing is, is that nobody can actually all of our artists if you wantn use their voice, you have to consult them, you have to show them. You have say that okay, we want toa use them this Trump ad and they could say yes or no. And you have to license it from them. Some of them have, you know, you can license it from them from a flat fee are the ones they require royalty. They want you 10% of your royalties and they'll do it for that. And ultimately another thing that makes things even more confusing but every AI debate is about this thing that a lot of people don't understand is that there's two layers with generative music or generative voice. So for example, when we listen to music, maybe somebody's a musician doesn't realize this.
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Unknown A
Every time you hear a crash cymbol, you're hearing a kick drum as well. That's just part of like if you're a drummer, you know to always hit the kick and the crash at the same time unless it's like something special. But generally at the beginning of like a bar, you hit the crash and the kick and that sort of equalizes the whole thing and makes it sound more powerful. AIs learned this and that's not copyrightable. Like that's not like really copyrightable stuff. That would be in the base model. That would be something where it's like this is just how music works in general. And then a Metallica melody and vocals and things like that would be in the second layer model. And that would be one where it gets a little bit more ambiguous. Where it's like this kind of is a bit more like sampling.
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Unknown A
But you're just working backwards. Like you're just dithering noise rather than just recording something and playing it back. And so if you're speaking strictly in enforcing copyright infringement, almost every single generative AI thing in the world is infringing copyright and if you or I did it in the way that we could, with the technology we have access to, we would be sued. If I took Mickey Mouse and just painted something over Mickey's face, Disney would sue me for doing it if I made any money off of it.
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Unknown B
Not Mickey, though, right? Didn't he finally follow a copyright like last year? I thought that did.
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Unknown A
Mickey did.
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Unknown B
I think so. Didn'they finally lose their extension?
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Unknown A
Oh, you're right.
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Unknown B
Yeah'not making, like, Steamboat Willie or something.
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Unknown A
And then finally Popeye this year I've been waiting for that'm.
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Unknown B
Holy sh.
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Unknown A
I saw so many news articles being like, Popeye fell out of copyright.
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Unknown B
Like, oh, good for getting the Christopher Nolan Popeye adventures we always wanted series.
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Unknown A
I'm so tired of drawing, like, weird, ambiguous, anonymous people.
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Unknown B
Saving olive oil off the tree, green beans instead spinach.
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Unknown C
Oh, okay. So walk me through this. So I understand. So Suno is a really popular gener.
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Unknown A
Suno and Udyo are the big one. Suno is worth $500 million they've raised.
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Unknown C
Okay, so I go in Suno and I type in, Write me a song about Nick having big muscles, which my husband and he hates. When I make PO songs on that, which is I do it all the time. And then I say write it in the tone and voice of Metallica. Could you walk me through, like, what s. What's the. What is going on that is copyrightable if it wasn't an AI making it? And why is it not copyrightable since it's an AI making it?
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Unknown A
So if you sample music or if you take any recorded music and repurpose it without permission, it's copyright infringement. That's what the copyright office says. Whether or not we agree with that being based, having a computer do it and then computer study a bunch of stuff and then remake ITUs.
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Unknown C
Who's stealing it?
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Unknown A
Well, we know who's profiting from it. Like, we know or who's trying to profit from it. It just gets. It's almost. I mean, it is. It's sampling, but it's intentionally obfuscated. Like, it's intentionally just made in a way where you can't really draw that connection as clear. Therefore, right now, the most recent federal judge to weigh in on this said that let's just make it to where AI music isn't copyrightable. Now, what we have, though, is, like, in the last piece of data that I got on this, I found a staggering amount of people just going to Suno or Udio and generating songs and then just putting them on Spotify and entering the royalty pool to share, to take away. I mean it takes away the money from real artists because the pools only this big and everybody's getting money out of it. Spotify doesn't seem to care which or any streaming service doesn't seem to care that they have very wishy washy AI.
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Unknown B
Detection things they didn't detect because onlys.
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Unknown C
Is Plankton's cover of Pink Pony Club.
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Unknown A
The only AI detection algorithm for music that I know of, I made.
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Unknown C
But they wouldn't even remove it.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown C
Like I said, the Plankton song, Plankton singing Ping Pony Club, it's still. Who's getting royalties from that? Whoever made the Plankton.
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Unknown A
Yeah, the comppt engineer. Yeah, Made it. Which you would think that a streaming service would have no interest in paying royalties on music that's not copyrightable because they don't have to. So my mission currently with this being very involved in it is I've made an algorithm that can detect AI music. And basically it sounds way more complicated than it is. Basically all this stuff was scanned off of places like Spotify, YouTube, stuff like that, using compression algorithms. And when you compress music for YouTubeer Spotify, 90% of it's gone from the original CD or from the original recording. That's just how it's magical the way that psychoacoustic file compression works. However, you could detect these things. You could detect the methods on how they're compressing this in the data set. It's reflected because data in, data out. And so far, with 100% accuracy, you can tell if something has been scraped from a compressed source or not.
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Unknown A
And nobody'scraping from uncopressed sources because they're not buying the music off of people. They're not paying them, so they're not getting the masters. So so far this is pretty infalluibleable. This is pretty good.
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Unknown C
So I'm understanding. So quickly, to reiterate, your AI is able to basically tell that somebody has compressed files. They've basically downloaded a file of music, given it to their machine to train on, and then cracked out some music. And your AI is able to basically read and go. This is trained off of compressed music.
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Unknown A
Originally sent me two songs that if you sent me two country songs, one that you recorded yourself, and you just sent me the file that you rendered from your recording software, wave file, whatever, and then you sent me a wav file and that was an uncompressed file that you generated Onsuno, I would be able to tell which one was made by you and which One was made by Sunu.
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Unknown C
What is it? What is it Finding.
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Unknown B
Oh, that's so clever. Wait, let me take a stab of this. You tell me. I'CORRECT so when you re there's a multitude of ways of compressing music. So in real life you have like these pressure waves and then there are ways that like the Nyquist sampling theorem you can do. But even past like these complicated ways of saling things, a really easy way, you know you have like MP3s, right? The easy way that an MP3 works is not only are they doing the compression algorithms to take away from and estimate all that're also chopping off some frequencies. So like a really aggressive MP3 setting might chop off like every frequency over like 16 kilohertz. For most people you're not really going to hear that much of a difference, especially if you're listening to headphones or a car or whatever. So you can chop off a all of these high frequencies and now you're saving a ton of space.
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Unknown B
You're taking a song that what was it like the right book standard for audio cds. This song might have been like 80 megabytes and it's like 2 megabytes now. However, when computers and AI are listening to things, they're not listening like humans. When we hear things, our imaginations fill in stuff, we just don't care about it. Whatever computer listenr is like okay, real music starts at 16. Basically yeah. But it's not just that there's no chop because technically in an uncompressed or compressed thing like there could be chopped. There could be chop stuff in real life music because. Because you record something real and you can press it. But an AI is literally their whole musical vocabulary might just be in certain.
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Unknown C
Range'S no idea that it's even being chopped. Doesn't all these other.
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Unknown A
It seems like when people were trying to make AI music detectors or something like that, anybody's took a stab at it. They've been like well what can we find that the AI does? And I was at some point I just got the epiphany where it's just like why don't we see what's not there?
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Unknown B
Wait, hold on. Isn't you saying this really not. Shouldn't you not say this shouldn't be like a closed.
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Unknown A
If I want to make money from it but I't.
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Unknown B
I want to go fuck around with AI music I would just do like flack or rate whatever.
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Unknown A
Here's what I would love to happen. Suno, if you're watching this, you Know my secret recipe? What I want you to do is go get the original masters from artists. You might have to fucking pay them and get their consent to do it. But yeah, go do that and then start your little business from there.
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Unknown B
What, do they just train it on unessors about paying any of the royalies?
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Unknown A
Are they gonna get that? Are they gonna buy every album off band Camp? Is this is a startup with the laziest method of scraping. They literally just wrote web scrapers. And allegedly, in my opinion, everybody knows that they wrote web scrapers that just scrapeed a bunch of things off the Internet. And I mean, it's literally just. Okay, moving forward, one second here, there's also a big problem that Generative AI is now having. Are you familiar with, like, the Pareto principle, like the 8020 rule? Okay, so, like, could you describe it.
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Unknown C
Though, for those ro.
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Unknown A
Sure, yeah. So, like, in a lot of ways, you get 80% of the result for 20% of the work, and then it flips and then things, and then to get that final 20%, you have to do 80% of the work. Some people would argue. I'm not even gonna give an a opinion on this, but some people would argue that, like, even the economy works the best when 20% of people working are making 80% of the income, which is a lot better than what we have now, by the way. But that would insinuate that the brightest people who are having the most or the people who have the most expertise are being compensated the best and they're motivated the best. And therefore everybody get. So AI, in my opinion, suffers from this, and I say this from owning a company that trains that we have our own base model that we trained from the ground up with consensual data.
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Unknown A
And the way that we've been able to get past that 80% is by working with the artists themselves, because that's really what gets you to that perfect perfection to where, like, if you wanted to actually use Image and Heap, for example, we trained a model for her. If you actually wanted to use image in Heaps's voice, then wouldn't you want image and heap putting hours and hours of content? Good data in is good data out, and so that way you would get professional content to use it however you want it, rather than just scraping and isolating her vocals off of Spotify or whatever, that it's only gonna get that good on the way out? And so all of Generative AI is about to have. I think it's already having this problem if you play around with like image generators or something. You've noticed that they've kind of haven't really improved all that much in the last year or so.
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Unknown A
And it's because they're reaching that 80% where it's ye. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's just where we are right now.
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Unknown C
With I to see. Do you think that AI music and stuff is destroying music? Do you think it's bad for the industry? Would you like to see suno change or not exist? Like, do you think AI is bad for music?
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Unknown A
I guess mean, I don't think it's destroying music because that's kind of like setting off a bomb on a building that's already been destroyed. As far as the music industry goes, I think streaming kind of put the last nail in the coffin for what we value music for, or what we value the intellectual property version of music for. I do think that sort of the little casino analogy that we had earlier, I do think a lot of people view it with that. They feel like something's being taken from them that they would have had otherwise, and otherwise you're not getting it. Otherwise, like nobody. I don't think that there's a major amount of people who are listening to AI music yet that are therefore not listening to human music. That being said, that is growing with algorithmic music. Like, if you're just listening to music on, if you're just putting in lo fi jazz, and if 50% of that is AI generated, then like 50% aren't musicians that are getting the money from your subscription fee, but the amount of money that anybody's getting from your subscription feea solilo that, like, it almost doesn't matter.
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Unknown A
A good example of this. Anytime that I've like, played around with like, AI image stuff for thumbnails, for graphics and videos, just to see, is this really that helpful? And always I just go back to the stock image sites, I'll type 50 prompts, I'll use credits, all that. And like, realistically, there's something on Pexels which is free, where somebody said, you could use my picture for whatever you want, and I could use that. And. And it's much easier. So it's sol with generativei music and video and pictures. It's kind of a solution without a problem, in my opinion, because we've already devalued content to the point where $10 a month gets you unlimited stock music, video, photos, and everything else.
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Unknown B
So it's like you can't have this conversation because people will kill you for it. But One of the difficult conversations to have is how much our standard of living has increased and how many expectations we have for stuff today. And it was a really big deal. When you go and buy I od for $12 for $15 like you would go home, you'd pop into your CD player and you better hope you like it. And that's like your music. Unless you were illegally on Napster or if you were on forer sites or whatever. Yeah, that was a really big deal. But now the expectation is you talk about this description but I'm pretty sure it doesn't Spotify. You listen for free with ads or whatever. Yeah. Now the expectation is I should basically have what was like the most illegal thing ever. Do we ever like Waigink palace or any of the old.
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Unknown B
Yeah. In case what cd?
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
Water waffles. Yeahah. But you have like these. That stuff was like the win when they'the most illegal stuff that you could ever have. And now that's like every consumer expects that on Spotify with like even more features. Because I don't just expect Spotify. So let me play every single song has ever been released ever. I also expect it to create like auto mixes for me and suggest new songs. I've never been suggested before and that's just the expectation for nothing.
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Unknown A
You'll like this with what CD which replaced Oinkin Oink got shut down. These are all torrent trackers for pirating music. I had my music on itunes and I had no idea how it was up there. I had a label that went to Funct and my music was still up there. I wasn't getting any of it. I'been'getting any royalty from it. And I asked itunes for a year please take it email to everybody I could email talk to him. And finally I sued Apple and then they finally took it down. In that time I put an album. I had a new album coming out and I put it up on whatt CD and I talked to the admins and I said hey, I'm uploading this myself. I just want to make sure that it's like the right version, that it's a good rip, all this stuff.
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Unknown A
And would it be okay if I put in an HTML file that just have PayPal link in there so people could contribute if they wanted to. And I wrote a little note saying like hey pirate, I don't really care. I'm just happier listening to my music if you want to contrib it. I made more from that than I made from every other album in Combination from that one thing, just from doing that. Which kind of in my opinion really flows well with like how I think that we should actually give money to art. Like if we're go going toa give money for music, we should be giving it to artists rather than to the intellectual property.
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Unknown C
Do you think that that's like a selection bias though, where like the type of people who will go out of the way to pirate from the site and everything like that are also the people that might kind of appreciate and be more intentional and thoughtful about being like, okay, well, because I prided it and they gave it to me for free. I like it, I want to give back. Whereas like that model won't generalize well because you're already selecting for a unique type of person in the first place.
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Unknown A
I think in that with those torrent trackers and there's still one today that still exists, I almost don't want to mention it publicly because who knows what will happen. But with those like oink and wat cd, the vast majority of the users there, the active users there were music lovers. That's what they were. First and foremost. They were music lovers to the point where it was pedantic and annoying, where if somebody had an album rip and you could hear dust in it, then the mods would take it down and people would vote it down. And the amount of data this is.
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Unknown B
Back in the day, just people understand this. People would buy like there were certain CD DVD burners that were considered better to create perfect rips and you would have ripping programs that you would use that would generate login que files that would efficiency ra exactlyes to show you exactly how good your was. And like there was so much ego into having like uploads on the site that people would try to go and find like older albums. You would download like a. You would and buy the city yourself. Like people go these hunts to find like originalhiies and then they would do their own rips and then they could upload and Trump like a 90% rip or whatever, 100% orever. There's like a whole thing on this.
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Unknown A
Ultimately what it is is like archival, like love fueled archival. And. And I've met with no less than a dozen startups that are trying to do Spotify better in one way or another. They're trying to like improve on that. I've consulted for some I've done and every single one, the first thing I bring up is screenshots of what cd and I say this is what you want. Like this is the top Tier this is the best and most complete music archive. Like at least if you're doing it in a specific point in time, this is as good as it gets. And that's what people ultimately, if you compare that to Spotify, the selection there and the amount of information there that you could get. And I mean we're talking like live shows, demos, like every single thing you think of. It was pirates who really made that organized treasure in archive available.
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Unknown A
And a lot of artists were mad about it but didn I guess maybe I was just not mainstream enough to be mad about it. I was just like this is amazing. People are hearing my music that would never hear it otherwise. And also in the community that's another thing that we've lost with music is I bet like any of us can think of a time when we used to listen to music based on what our friends recommended to us and we would analyze it based on the recommendations that we had. And that community was. I just don't know if that sort of thing can exist now that we have streaming. Just because people are so used to streaming.
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Unknown B
I don't think that has anything to with streaming. I'm sympathetic argument but I think that just has more to do with how the Internet works today. And we're all on basically four websites. But I think we lost something that was really great which were individual forums and websites that were human curated by human moderators and human posters that all were really into a particular thing rather than a slop of every single person on Reddit or Twitter or Facebook or whatever.
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Unknown A
One thing that. Are you familiar with blitz scaling and fast scaling? Are you familiar with those business models?
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Unknown C
Yeah, that's like I was actually going toa ask you about this. This is what Netflix did for a while. They just dumped a bunch of money. It made things really cheap out a way that they would never make back the money to kill competition. Right.
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Unknown B
Sound like every tech startup ever for the past.
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Unknown A
Well Amazon kind of started this like Amazon was just like look, I have our friend Jeff was just like I I have this idea we're gonna start a bookstore and we're gonna kind expand out other things. It's not gonna make profit for a really long time. But if we just keep growing and put every single thing into growth, eventually nobody will be able to compete with us. And they used a lot of tactics such as Amazon prime which uses loss aversion ca because guess what, if you're paying a yearly fee to get free shipping free 2 day ship nowes not daysore but if you're paying that much for that, then you feel like you're losing something if you shop somewhere else because you're paying for this one already. So you're more likely to. Even if you're spending more money on Amazon prime, you're paying for Amazon.
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Unknown A
So you get locked in this likeir weird wall garden that you can't get out of. But it didn't take long for Amazon to like completely outpace Walmart. And Walmart at the time was like the big, the worst company in the world, the biggest one. And every other company started paying attention to this. And so that's how we ended up. And what you would consider Amazon is fast scaling. They prioritized growth. Blitz scaling is what Uber did where if anybody said, hey, how are you going toa make a profit though? And they said, I don't fucking know, but we're going to own out all the shit, so we'll figure it out then. I can think of a lot of businesses that had thisact exact frame of mind when they were getting their initial investors. And so now you have Uber, which is a pretty brilliant system.
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Unknown A
Like if the three of us, well, let's say there's more than us. Let's say that there was s like an entire room full of people here and we all wanted to go to Publix to a grocery store. The richest of us, the person whose time is deemed the most valuable would be the one to afford the one ride to public. So really you're monetizing a third party's monetizing time, which is pretty brilliant. Like that's pretty next level crazy stuff. They don't really have that many employees. It's all gig economy stuff. A lot of their employees are making less than minimum wage. They've ended up almost completely getting rid of a cab industry that was based on medallions. They've paid off s like in Chicago, they just literally gave the city a bunch of money and they ended up like undercutting the medallion. This is fucking crazy stuff. How much profit do you think Uber's made?
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Unknown B
None.
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Unknown A
None. They've lost billions and billions of dollars. And so Spotify, like they don't own any of like, I mean, I guess they do now that they're like making their own content. But like, I could take my music off Spotify now. It could be off by next week. One little event could take a bunch of music off. They don't really own anything and they're using these same principles where they just took a bunch of money and our entire economy is in this weird flux where so many things are blitz scaled. We're like, sometimes I like go, I'll go to downtown Atlanta or like Nashville or something and I'll walk around, I'll be like trippin over scooters everywhere. And it dawns on me, I'm like, this is fucking crazy. Like these aren't making anybody money. This is all just venture capital dollars, like trying to subsidize my life by giving me a scooter to ride around on the sidewalk.
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Unknown A
Which is not legal yet. It's not legal to ride around on the street. And like nobody's actually there to say maybe not do this. You know, in some cities I guess they're now finally getting rid of them. But yeah, I mean that's just, it's just music's version of that, which is everything. Which might be part of the reason why I like moved to a farm because I am a little like own. I feel like our current economy, I mean I invest this way and I feel very, very strongly about this. I feel like our current economy is trying to just buy up every last thing and rent it back to us. And eventually when everybody with the standard salary and retirement plan who has a 401k or who has a savings or Social Security, they think it's a lot of money now, but the inflation will increase and it'll be just enough money to buy them a mattress when they're ready to die.
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Unknown A
And all'll just get siphoned away through inflation while everything that is a hedge to inflation is owned. And I came to this conspiracy theory from companies constantly trying to buy my entire body of work. Like just private equity firms just saying, oh, you want to sell us all of your work? And thinking to myself like buying music right now in the streaming era on AI and everything, it seems like a terrible investment. Like who would want to give me hundreds of thousands of dollars for my library? But there's just a lot of things.
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Unknown C
To buy because if they buy it, then the whole idea is if they buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, even though they're losing crap loads of money. Maybe it's like uber speculative business ventures because they're hoping in the future they'll have a monopoly, they'll have everything.
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Unknown A
It's hedging. It'just hedging.
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Unknown C
Hopefully we'll make the money back.
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Unknown B
Don't think it's not even necessarily you need to make the money back. I think it's leveraging basically over and over again. The idea is, I guess it's funny because you think like, oh, like how will this business going? Okay, well we don t want to look at revenue. We want toa look at profit. And it's like no, actually we just want to look at the revenue. I would rather have a business that is grossly unl profitable but the revenues are in the billions of dollars, then having a super profitable business whose revenues are in the millions of dollars because once you hit like a certain size, at that point you can start to cut away the excess and what you're left with will probably be profitable. But at the end of the day, this is kind of weird to think about. But when it comes to investing, when you buy or sell a part of a company, what you're really buying or selling because you don't want to run it on your own is a ision that you feel passion about what you're really buying.
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Unknown B
And selling is you're buying something that you believe other people believe they'll be able to sell at a greater price than what they buy it from you when you sell it to them in the future. That's really what every single.
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Unknown A
It's like a slow motion horse race where you could buy and sell, buy and sell your bet on the horses halfway through the race to other betors.
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Unknown B
Yeah, you at PE ratios for like Tesla like how much money this company generation based shows not this is like real, it's not like representative of any kind of fundamental analysis of the company or what we think they'll go for in the future. But when you're buying you like, well people probably buy Tesla stock now these are obviously going to be highly, well hopefully highly correlated with the underlying asset value.
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Unknown C
But not alwaysly, not like Tesla.
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Unknown B
Yeah, but then also, but it's also to, you never know when that thing like well who knows, maybe this random fucking company will become Spotify or become Amazon or become whatever then. Ye.
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Unknown A
But I mean a lot of the venture capital firm, their strategy in general is to throw a bunch of things at the wall and if one sticks, it pays for all the other.
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Unknown B
Yeah, for sure.
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Unknown A
And that's how they all work. Because the, the amount of money you make back on that second round of investment when then you could dump your equity. But like realistically any business when it gets purchased by a private equity firm, like Lucy for example, her vet, but she has two vets, one of her vets was purchased by private equity firm and you think about like what does that mean for her treatment? Like does that mean that obviously means that they're going to be trying to get me to spend as much money as possible. Because now it's not a group of veterinarians that own it, it's a group of investors that own it who have their own investors investing in that private equity firm. And like so all of a sudden now she's not getting the best treatment or I'm having to spend more money on her treatment and I guess let's talk about human health care then.
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Unknown A
Like it's the exent structures.
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Unknown C
I completely move from vets who aren't super business avy and mostly care about paying their bills and helping animals to.
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Unknown B
Venture capitalists who care about bullshit. I'll take a hot attack on that and I'll say that the issue was there before the private equity came in. I don't like the model. This is my most anti capitalistics I'm generally pretty big capitalist. I don't like the model of I'm going to grow business to sell it because I think you're always setting yourself up for and there's too much of the nowadays if you have a tech startup I want to get itireded by Amazon or Google I want to get itireded by Netflix and I think it's just fucking cancer. At least to people say oh private equity came in and they tried to do this was like well yeah, because the guy that was running it before was never trying to make a proper venture. He was trying to make it lucrative enough for private equity come and buy out and how he's fucking gone.
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Unknown B
It'like yeah, that's what ir'tating to mean. I also think something that I think people need to deal with fast is the people call it. I think they call it n shification or whatever where all the software here, whatever yeah this is because consumers want it and they need to. It's where products just become shitty over time. I consider every there's a thing called software as a service where you don't actually get the buy piece of software but city you pay these subscription fees or you pay accessport or whatever but the issue is that customers want fucking everything and they want it right fucking now. And they either want it for free or they want it do some obfuscated fucking payment scheme mechanism and that's a problem. I think people need to grow the fuck up and figure their shit out better because I think companies are giving us a lot of what we want.
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Unknown B
It reminds me of as a quick site soe I think was there was a new CEO I think of what target who wanted to get rid of the Every single year. They always have sales year round. He's like're going to get rid of this too. Honest advertising, custom. It was like a disaster. We're going back to the sales all the time.
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Unknown A
I mean, it's funny though, because I guess at the same time it's like how I remember when Uber first came out when it was like, everybody's complaining about I was in Chicago. It time. Everybod's complaining about Chicago cabs. They're expensive, their'own or they smell bad, they're unreiable, all these reasons why. And then all of a sudden it's like, dude, for like $4, I could go from here, where I'm at now, all the way downtown in a cab. That would cost 20 bucks and it would be. And I would probably have to wait there on the street calling the thing for 10 minutes. And how many people were like, hold on a second, what's going on on the business side here? Is this gonna turn out bad in 10 years? Like, nobody's doing that. They just went downtown. The same thing with Spotify Public.
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Unknown C
People don't even understand. I think a really big part of this. And just be clear. I know the one thing I do know about the economy is I don't know very much about the economy. Like, I know enough to know that there's like this massive world. I think about like my parents and the way that they even understand anything like this. Like, they don't. Most people don't know to ask how the Uber industry, like how the business side works of it. Because most people don't even have the beginning of the vocab to even begin to explore. They don't really understand. Like when I explain to my parents that like debt is getting cheaper because of inflation, they just like, they just, they're like, but debt is bad. And I'm like, not kind of, kind of not like it's complicated.
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Unknown A
I mean, it's. Movie Pass is one of my favorite examples. Like Movie Passes, like the ballsiest Movie Pass is like too ballsy for even like the most. No. So Movieass was just like a startup where they were like, okay, we have no idea how we're gonna make a profit. Doesn't matter. Worked for all these other guys. Give us a bunch of DC money and what we're gonna do is give people a pass so they can see as many movies as they want per month and they just pay a small subscription fee. And everybody was like, oh yeah, it's online in life. In real life, you just go to.
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Unknown B
Theater O. I thought, I thought AMC had an AMC members movie pass or something.
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Unknown A
AMC at the time, they literally reached out to MoviePass and they're like, we want you to know that we are never like, we understand what you're trying to do. You're trying to get so many people to buy this that you're going to make our tickets dirt cheap or free. And it's never going to happen. And so we're not even going to honor your coupons anymore. Fuck you. And so MovieAss said, okay, you know what? They ended up sending all of their customers debit cards, literally preloaded debit cards that they could spend at the movies that just had like Visa or whatever on it. And take a wild guess what happened. Everybody lost their money on the venture. But I mean that's like a great example of like the ballsiestlitz scale of all time was just. I mean, scooters are close. Scooters are like a close one where you're just like, really?
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Unknown A
It made thousands of these things over the city. But Movie Passes definitely Holds My Heart is my favorite because it was just so. It was such an asshole business, but everybody loved it. But again, if venture capital. When you said that you used Suno, that you always make songs on Suno for your husband, I imagined a viewer shaming you for doing that. But as long as you're not paying suno, I'm all for it. Use it for free. That's fine. You're just burning. You're literally just burning cloud computing money for Entreeen Horowitz. It's beautiful to watch Free Day May.
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Unknown B
Don't know. I feel like it's hard because one of the hardest things when you work in the arts, did you ever gig for money? Sure. One of the hardest things is getting people to respect what you're doing as work. So for musicians, I think that some of your luckiest things would have been, especially for photographers, things like weddings. There's the expectation that the person will pay. But when it comes to friends and stuff, people just of you kind of like, oh my God, you have that group. You guys should just look kind birthday'be like fun or whatever. Okay, well, are you charging a cover'no?
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Unknown A
No, because it.
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Unknown B
Have fun, don't you? You love things.
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Unknown A
The opportunity work for experience. That's like the classic.
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Unknown B
I hate that one. I hate PA and exposure work experience, because I think that's legitimate. But the problem is that usually the people saying it are never actually doing it as hell. Y like Joe Rogan was like, list and you can come like guest co host for me for experience and exposure. I'm going to pay you money. I'll be like, okay, yeah, obviously I'm doing this, of course, but usually it's go going to be the guy running his college radio station to like seven listeners who saying it.
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Unknown A
It's usually just the person who doesn't want to pay somedy. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine if you were Joe Rogan's co host for. I mean, can you. I'm just imagine it would be a.
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Unknown B
Lot of mental anguish.
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Unknown C
They would get along so well.
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Unknown A
Maybe, maybe en. I don't know. It's funny ca becausee I've always been in MMA and combat sports and I was a big fan of Joe Rogan.
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Unknown B
I'm so sorry.
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Unknown A
Until the Joe Rogan happened, it was good for a while, but mean, he talked about MMA a lot, which was like, oh, cool, you. And he had like pretty deep insightful thoughts about it. For me, I feel likean the first Jordan Peterson episode. Do you remember the first time you heard Jordan Peterson? Were you intrigued to.
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Unknown C
I love. I still have a soft part in my heart for Jordan Peterson.
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Unknown A
Still. Yeah, like I don't like anything you feel bad about. Like the Xanax thing.
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Unknown B
No, no, no.
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Unknown C
It's like a 3 2020. I just think that he was on. He was popularized and shit on more than I think was fair and sh down for things that I don't think were very fair. Most of the shitting on people don't even I think is super well earned. So I have a nostalgic love for pre2020.
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Unknown A
I remember listening to the Jordan Peterson episode, like in the car or something. The first one, it was very like, I never heard of them before. And being very like, okay, I gotta read this gulag book you. And being like, all right, that's interesting. And then a bunch of people told me to listen to it. A bunch of people like, you gotta hear this guy, Jordan Peterson. And then I listened to it again, maybe with like a. A little bit more sus. And I remember one part where he was talking about. He talked about gender. He talked about, you're either man or woman. You can't choose between those two. It's binary. You're man or woman. You can't be anything other. And then like within 15 minutes he was talking about how it doesn't matter if Jesus actually existed. It's the story that matters. And he was just taking truth and going like all of a sudden the.
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Unknown C
Second one, I this'gotta be the second. Maybe it was with him like Jesus salvation thing, I think came later.
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Unknown A
I remember Joe asked him. He was like, but you're like a scientist, but you're also religious. How do you reconcile that? And he just went ahead and redefined truth, which is like the number one red flag.
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Unknown B
I think you can get away with stuff like this. Like, I can appreciate from a horrendously philosophical perspective, like we're gonna go and explore a lot. But the selective exploration drives me fucking insane. I think it took all of it was like 15 or 20 minutes. You know, Alex O. Connor is on YouTube. He used to be the cosmic skeptic. And then he theor. He had an hour conv. I thank with Jordan Peterson and it was. Did Jewish people leave Egypt and walk to Israel? And to get him to actually eng clip of this. Yes, did this. It was a long to get him to just engage with it. And yeah, he's like, what does it mean when we say did it actually happened? And ontologically, these are all really interesting questions in kind.
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Unknown C
Sure.
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Unknown B
What does that actually mean? But then like, I remember my today was like 20% that'in Europe, that definitely means was an excent'like. O, holy shit. Okay, well, now we're like very quick on all the truth. I've never. I would have so much respect if he were to say, somebody were to pose that the trans question or whatever, and he would legitimately ask like, well, what does it actually mean to have this experience or whatever men and women even exist at all?
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Unknown A
What?
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Unknown B
Okay, yeah, he's doing the philosophy engagement. But he like, he's explaining every topic. But when you only turn that on to the things that you just don't want to answer, and it's like, okay, this is Bullit'yeah.
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Unknown A
And it's a really good debate. It's a really good way to win a debate, or I guess sideline a debate is to immediately go deep into the philosophy of truth. Every single time that, like, you're full of shit. You know, every time you reach a juncture where like, you can't explain yourself around it, you're just like, well, what is truth mean? Maybe it doesn't matter. If Jesus existed is because it's compared it to Batman. You compared it to like DC Comics. He's like, it's more like the Dark Knight. When it's like, what are you taught?
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Unknown B
Imagine like a cheating husband. Like Jordan Peterson's skit where it's likeic forces means my dick actually never entered that woman at all. What?
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Unknown A
There are an infinite amount of universes where I did not cheat on you and you are hung up on the superposition of a moment that doesn't even exist anymore.
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Unknown B
Bitch.
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Unknown C
Yeah, I definitely feel like. I wish his early on inquiry into feels like he had early on inquiry into everything. I think you disagree. I'm not sure though. Got lost very quickly with popularity, which is very sad.
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Unknown B
It was the C16 stuff. I think everybody's politics. You know, people say like re. Like for normal people. Everybody's defined by the trauma with their parents in the YouTube and like political world. Everybody's political positions is defined by their trauma. Whoever believed them last. And I think when the. Do you know that Bill C16 stuff in Canada or whatever.
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Unknown C
I thought he went more crazy with the like the C16 stuff is where he popped off. But it was more so people like attacking him over the trans stuff specifically.
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Unknown B
Or Is that what you mean when I. So Canada has some fucking Canadian Human Bill of Rights or some Bullit and they added some part to it that was like included like trans people extensively. But it wasn't like a hard rule.
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Unknown A
Like you took it like literally as if you could be arrested when that didned speech.
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Unknown B
But the meme became like you accidentally misgendered somebody. The fucking gender police are gonna show up and fucking beam you off to max some security. Indigenous persons personison or something. And it was just like. I think that his take there was probably a little bit silly. But then he got massive hate and then this is during.
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Unknown C
Do you think it was disproportionate hate.
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Unknown B
Proably because they were coming off like peak wokeness basically 2016. Yeah, we were still tapering off that. So he got bullied like crazy there and then audience capture over the right. And then he just became a crazy sycophantically. Right. It's gotten worse. It was a toler volition in the beginning but the.
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Unknown A
It got. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. A lot of people when they fought like the peak woke crowd and then they ended up just really. I mean. Yeah, I guess they just ended up doubling down into the hole of Notch, the Minecraft creator. He's a good example of that where I think he said one or two things that ended up being really poorly received. I don't remember exactly what they were. And then just kind of just went straight into that film. Do you know G.L. graham Grimer? Glyner. That's what his ex handle was. But yeah, he's like basically a professional anti trans activist who he was one of the writers of the IT crowd, and he was a writer, and he just really went down this crazy path just defending J.K. rowling. Okay, mean, it's. And J.K. rowling'another example of that where, like, she said a few things that, like, maybe were a little misinformed.
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Unknown C
They're like, off and then, like, people freaked the fuck out. And then they just got like, more extreme.
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Unknown A
Do I know a great example of somebody who like, said something that was like, a little bit misinformed and then made a great rebound? My friend Bill, who's in the other room, he said, correct me if I'm wrong, Bill, but he said somebody was calling him off for working with a mastering engineer or something who said a bunch of like, men, women should be, men should't be in women's sports, blah, blah, blah. And it was about combat sports. And Bill said, wait a minute. You mean to tell me that if I just joined the UFC and started beating the shit out of women, that everybody would be okay with this? And then the pylon started happening and he messaged me. He was like, hey, man, I feel like I'm gonna get canceled. Like, this is really bad. And it was bad. It was fucking crazy.
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Unknown A
And I was like, well, first of all, there's weight divisions. Second of all, if you fought a woman in your weight division, she would beat the fucking shit out of you becausee she's a professional fighter and you're not. And third, there's USADA that the amount of steroid tests that average UFC fighter, like, I have friends who I friends with the UFC fighter, I went to visit him and somebody showed up and watched him urinate. Like, it's fucking crazy. The amount of like, they take your blood. It's totally nuts. And so. And that has nothing to do with like, gender pos. It just has to do with like, straight up looking for doping. And unfortunately, any sort of hormone therapy is very incompatible with that. So this is just a non issue. And so what Bill did is he read about how long it takes to be pretty much equal to somebody in the other gender, you know, through hormone therapy and all that stuff.
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Unknown A
And he just spent some. He deactivated his account. He read up on stuff and they said, here's where I was wrong. And yeah, I'm sorry if I hur anybody s feelings, but yeah, I've learned a lot about this. And anyway, and a couple people still complain about it, but for the most part it was like, yeah, he learned a bunch of stuff. And he stated a Bunch of facts, even stuff that I didn't know. And I learned a little bit from it too. And now it's all over with and nobody had to go down a right wing rabbit hole for the rest of their life.
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Unknown B
Yeah. Bothers me to see people I can understand feeling stubbor or don not t want to change an opinion, especially at the moment. But it's just crazy how much people change just off of like one thing. I guess it's not justself A1, then it starts you on a pathway. So it's good course. Correct. Yeah.
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Unknown C
I think I'm just. I'm so sympathetic to this because I think. I think when you feel like your own side is purity testing you and like, you have to abandon, especially if you feel like you have to abandon, like, engaging with truth and reality to like, be part of the party, there's something very, like, disgusting about that. And so on the other side is like, kind of like opening their arms to you. And even though they've disagreed with you historically and they'll continue to disagree with you and other things, they more or less will like, still talk to you and treat you like a human being. I don't know, I just. I don't know how we. I just think it's so understandably human to like, trend down that pathway. Like, and I understand what you're saying. Like, everyone's opinion is just the trauma of like, is just opposed to like, their last trauma was like, I don't actually see a ton of right wingers getting purity tested out and like, moving really far left and being like, welcomed in because they would never be welcomed in on the left, to be honest.
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Unknown C
Like, if somebody like, if like, Alex Jones was like, all this is wrong. I'm so sorry, and goes super far left, I don't think he would ever be accepted.
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Unknown A
I could be wrong.
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Unknown C
I don't think it would ever be accepted.
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Unknown A
An interesting thing about Alex Jones that I noticed that kind of went unspoken during on the January 6th whole thing. There's video evidence, or there's video footage of him almost begging the audience to not go to the capin. He's just like, don't go. It's done. Go home. He's just like, let's go over here, have a party. Let's go do this. Let's go do this, this instead. And yeah, and I mean it. Things like that. It's like, nobody really mentioned that. He kind of knew, like, this is gonna be really bad. It's gonna look bad for everybody. Who knows if it was like self interest. Or if it was like no, this would actually be a bad idea. Self interest.
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Unknown B
Fuck him. Yeah, I'm they changed their tune cause I watched all the info war coverage going back on J6 and after Ashley Baba got shot and the National Guard shot up and it was becoming very obvious that this was not gonna work. A lot of them it was really funny because on Infowars I don't remember name of this particular host because Alex was at the capit the guy'so funny because they're literally saying like four hours earlier these are what real American patriots look like. This is not blm. This is not antifa. These are real American patriots. And four hours later Alex Jones and might be on Schroyer are on a thing and they're like it's all anti out here. Like've never seen. It's all. We don't know any of these guys. We don't know these people. It's crazy. And it's like but it because there'obviously.
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Unknown A
Lot sell your supplements I guess ye.
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Unknown B
But I do agree that like the Internet hate mobs are a little bit crazy. I wonder sometimes if the reason why the right is more accepting than the left is because this is like getting tunneled into my pet idea. So maybe I'm like overestimating this but I feel like the wr really cares about winning political power. It's really important to like try to win elections and get people to support like Donald Trump and all that. But on the left there's almost like there's like this like pride to be like disengaged like I'm not votinge Fuck this. It's not go going toa do anything or change anything. And then like maybe some people on the no, nobody on the right side it the right is like we need to keep people from voting like the left like the far left. These people line be like why would I vote for Kamal or Harris Like I know that.
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Unknown B
Or for Kamal Trump it's gonn be sing it the way because of Gaza or whatever else. And then people on the right like Donald Trump's literally like all the mail in ballots will be rigged. Go and vote in person. You have to vote in person. If you're Republican, you need to go and vote the day of we vote on the night.
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Unknown A
We have to do it.
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Unknown B
And it's like yeah, I don't know that difference is I think that the goals are a lot different and that's one of the reasons why frustratingly people on the left are proceived as not being accepting of people coming back because they don't need them, they don't want them, and it doesn't matter their project.
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Unknown A
It wasn't always that way. I have clear memories of like, when we started invading Iraq. Like, me and my friends, not the government. Yeah. I mean, like in the second Iraq War, you. There was like massive protests at Chicago that time and stuff. And I used to like go to a diner and a bar with a group of friends and literally half of us were like, pro fucking Newke Iraq. And the other half was like, hell no, we need to get out of the Right. And we would have heated debates over beers and I'll hug it and nobody hated each other over it. And like, so. But one thing about all that big cough, one thing about all that is like, Donald Trump kind of did come in and bring things to the next level. Like he really, I mean, yeah, he made his entire career, political career, off of a culture war.
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Unknown A
And so I think that's the reason why now I just feel like in 2000 or in 2005 or something, I would have never been like. Like very few Americans were like, I don't really want to go home for Christmas because they voted for the other guys. I feel like that's a thing that's. Now that wasn't done.
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Unknown B
I think a lot of it is. I think it'really. It's impossible to separate it all out. But I think that Donald Trump came up as part of this new world of fast technology and scrolling apps and everything else. And the way you communicate with people now is truly through sloganeering and short, quippy things. And what's true real doesn't really matter as much as like having the funniest one liner. And I think that some of it is Donald Trump for sure, but a lot of it is just that, like we're on TikTok and we're on Reddit and this came from vine and we're on all these things because the media, media environment is so fast, an instant. I think that that's just like the world that we live in now. And as a result of that, not only do the quippy less attached to reality things get more play, it'll do better on an algorithm, which is what so much of our content is dictated by now.
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Unknown B
It's not people programming stuff at CNN or Fox News, it's what does X think you want to see next and what does YouTube think you want to see next?
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
So candidates like Trump, we are going to get promoted more you also run into this weird world where because it's so much more accessible and because so many people can make money on it now I can make money showing young kids certain things about politics now. Fucking every single fucking thing has like political alignment. All the things are politically aligned now. Like, you mentioned before that you liked MMA and everything. Like, damn, that's like a right wing fucking sport now.
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Unknown A
Yeah, it's funny cae that I just said something about like, I've always been very like into m. I mean, yeah, I boxed when I was a kid. I've had memi fights. It's not like a secret. And just lately people have been kind of calling me out cause it's the right wing and in like. My other response is like, can you think of any other major sport where like headline events that you have to pay perview for, have like two Brazilian lesbians? Like, that's not a thing. Anywhere else. It's always men. Every, like it is by far the most diverse sport and the accepting of the most like gender and ethnically accepting sport by far. And yes, like Dana White, nobody involved in like UFC lore. Like big uf it likes Dana White. Like, he's not a liked person. Like, we've hated him this entire time.
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Unknown A
We think he's a fucking asshole. He doesn't pay fighters enough. He took away their sponsorships, he sold the conf. There's so many reasons why Dana White'an asshole. This is just one of the many. And that's how I feel like most hardcore UFC fans look at that. And weirdly, it's gotten adopted by, I mean, Joe Rogan's always been a part of it, but I guess Donald Trump started showing up to events now.
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Unknown B
Y. I feel like hardcore fans might feel that way, but unfortunately it comes down to how many people can you sell tickets to, which the hardcore people ended up getting outbid. Now you look at boxing now is like the biggest exhibition matches which are all done by like fucking Jake Paul and shit, who's also like a super big Trump supporter. And it's just always so weird and cringe.
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Unknown A
And if you really hate Donald Trump and you're interested in mixed martial arts, there's a fighter named Colby Covington who went full on Donald Trump MAGA world. I mean, just cringey levels of like. And Trump loved him and brought him to the White House and took a picture with him and then he fought for the title and he was really. The betting odds were in his favor and everything. And Trump went to see him fight and he got his ass fucking kicked for 25 minutes like just didn't even get knocked out or submitted just got his ass kicked for 25 minutes and then he just made his comeback fight and got his ass kicked again. And that's the beautiful thing about MMA is that Donald Trump's fighter you can't watch Ben Shapiro get the shit kicked out of him.
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Unknown B
You want to create a clashalk There was one time it almost happened I don't remember what was the interview that he gave where he was sitting next to was big she was a big trans woman. Yeah but it was something about like I don't think ye yeah like why don't think trans her real and she like turned and looked at she was like'you he It's a funny yeah that's good it's a funny thing but yeah yeah I hate consumers it's their fault everything's stringing a shit and no I'm.
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Unknown A
Just kidding Patty be we should have win self checkout became a thing we should have said fuck you, I'm not shopping here anymore. We broke the whole thing by allowing it love we knew it we knew myself checkout was coming we knew it wasn't to make the prices cheaper in the store we knew it was to fire the staff that was helping us and we took it and we went.
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Unknown B
With it anyway any other final thoughts or think thingsn to get to or want to chat about or I think.
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Unknown A
We covered a lot of ground especially with tomorrow.
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Unknown B
Thanks lot for joining us. Where can people find you? They're looking for your stuff.
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Unknown A
I could just search my name you'll find it.
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Unknown B
There's yeah how do you spell your name?
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Unknown A
B E N N J O R D A N Ben Jordan.
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Unknown B
Yeah two first names invested in a.
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Unknown C
Second N there for no reason at all.
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Unknown A
Yeah it's private equity firm want to buy I want to thank you for coming here by the way.
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Unknown C
Yeah thanks for hosting us.
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Unknown A
Yeah glad I'm glad that this worked out. I'm glad it was literally as cool and easy as soon as I figured.
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Unknown C
It would be cool Lucy, any last thoughts?
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Unknown A
Oh she's t that's going to get a good sniffk.
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Unknown C
The news is divided ground News puts it back together so you can see how many sources are reporting on any breaking story where they fall on the political spectrum, how reliable they are and who owns them. Compare headlines and read full articles to see which details are prioritized, exaggerated or left out entirely. Because the more we understand the media the more we'll understand each other. Visit Ground News to learn more.