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Unknown A
What attracted you? Like you've got journalists now in the UK and you ve, you've also allied yourself with Tommy Robinsons. What is it that's attracted you the to the uk, let's say.
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Unknown B
Well, I had really never spent any time there and I interviewed Tommy Robinson about 10 years ago on the Sun News Network, which was the precursor to Rebel News, and I was scared of him because if you try and find out about.
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Unknown A
It's a good reason to be.
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Unknown B
The first 100 things you'll read about him are atrocious defamations.
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Unknown A
But he's a tough character.
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Unknown B
Yeahh.
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Unknown A
Tommy Robinson came from the streets. He's like, don't mess with him. And he's super smart and he's not afraid. So like he's an intimidating character.
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Unknown B
Yeah. I mean, the very first question I asked him is, are you racist? That's a strange question to ask someone. The first.
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Unknown A
That's for sure.
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Unknown B
And I sort of knew he wasn't, but I wanted to hear him say it and I got to know him a little bit. And so when that was at Sun News Network, when Rebel News started.
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Unknown A
He's not racist like your typical intelligent working class guy is, which means he'll be friends with people who are like his friends and't the rest of it doesn't really matter.
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Unknown B
He grew up in Lewon, one of the most racially mixed towns there is. You know, when I started Rebel News, Tommy was working home renovations. And I called him up and I said, how much are you making? He lied.
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Unknown A
Ye.
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Unknown B
And I said, well, put down your tools and come work with us. Your destiny is to do more. No disrespect to home. Yeah, Renovations. You have a bigger calling. And when was that? I think that would'been 2015 or 2016.
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Unknown A
And so why do you decide to do that?
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Unknown B
What did I. Yeah, well, because I had seen the clear and well, like, you know what? Tommy doesn't have a formal education.
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Unknown A
Tommy's smart though.
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Unknown B
He's very smart.
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Unknown A
Ye.
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Unknown B
Yeah, he's very well read. He has an encyclopedic command of the issues and he has the real street experience and he speaks with energy and you can, you can see the authenticity and the belief there.
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Unknown A
Yeah, that was my. And my wife, like my wife actually pushed me to interview him. I mean, I've been following Tommy for a long time because I've been keeping an eye on those rape gangs and wondering what the hell is going on here. And you know, I was leery about interviewing him because why? I know how much Trouble can you get yourself in? You know, but my wife. Well, my wife, who's a very harsh judge of character, approved of him. And then when we met him twice, like, she was watching him, right? And women are pretty good at detecting snakes if they. Especially if they put their mind to it. And she was, you know, more impressed with him when we finished than she was to begin with. And so. And he is super smart. And it was. It was interesting interviewing him, you know, because he's not narcissistic.
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Unknown A
He was really nervous. He was really nervous, he was sweating. And he knew that he had put his reputation on the line to come on my podcast, Right. Because he could have been unveiled if he was the sort of person that had a facade, let's say he knew the stakes were high, but I. But the nervousness was very interesting to watch. Like, he didn't come swaggering in there, you know, like a pseudo Andrew Tate, and figured that he was king of the castle. Quite the contrary. And he was very careful with what he said, although animated and so, okay, so you had interviewed him. What made you think that you should, like, select him out as a journalist?
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Unknown B
I just. I knew he had a story to tell that only he could tell.
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Unknown A
I knew he.
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Unknown B
There was a world in the UK outside of London, outside the fancy people. So when we finally convinced them to come over, as I described earlier, there's a lot of litigation of rebel news. We're always under attack in some way or another. So we have a lot of lawyers. So when Tommy joined us, I thought, for sure we're going to need a lawyer.
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Unknown A
So I asked at least one.
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Unknown B
That's right. So I asked our Canadian lawyer boss, who's a very high up guy, said, can you refer me to a colleague in London? He said, oh, yeah, you bet. So he gave me the top lawyer in London for this kind of thing. And I emailed him and he said, no, thanks, I'm too busy. I can't. But I recommend my colleague. Okay, call up the colleague. O just have such a workload. I can't. Number three, number four. Pretty soon, you know, one of them is candid and says, are you crazy? We're not gonna take. That would be the reputation for our firm. I had to go through seven lawyers before I finally found a lawyer. I'm not even kidding. I searched for war criminal lawyer, London. That's what I typed in.
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Unknown A
Wow.
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Unknown B
And I called the guy, I'm not gonna say his name. And I said, I have someone who's worse than any war criminal You've ever. Tommy Robinson, I mean, and I thought if you're willing to represent actual war criminals, maybe you'll help Tommy. And I'm glad we did because days thereafter he was arrested in a 4:30am raid on his home. And we got him out of jail that night. There really is a two tier kind of policing. It was very hard to work with Tommy because I'm on the other side of the Atlantic. Tommy's used to being autonomous bosseah. And all I'm saying is no, no, don't do that. It's a bad idea. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no right Happen. Then he go and do it. I mean he's not gonna listen to me. He knows and what do I know, right? And we hired a bodyguard for.
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Unknown B
And we hired. We had a whole. Tommy's not meant to be in a corporation.
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Unknown A
That's another T shirt you could mark. Tommy Robinson is not a corporate.
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Unknown B
No, we really help boost them. We introduced them to the world of media. We taught him whatever we could. And one important day we had him sit in the boardroom of a major law firm and all these lawyers came and taught him a little bit about defamation law, taught him a little bit about trespass, a little bit about copy. Like it was like a race car to pit stop and he was in the middle. And not only was he completely engaged, but he had thoughtful questions for everyoneus. He had dealt with all these things before.
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Unknown A
Well, and he's also smart as hell.
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Unknown B
So that was an amazing day. And he was with us for a bit longer, but then he. We just parted ways. He's lightning in a bottle and he's not meant to have a boss. So he went his own way and he was doing his own journalism. And there was this video of him in Rome and some migrant came up to him and said something like I'm gonna kill you or put you in a box. And Tommy knows how to fight. And this guy sauntered up to Tommy thinking he would. And Tommy just kapow and down the guy goes. And I'm watching this video and for the first time I can taking it in just as a consumer. Not like if I was his boss. I think, oh great, find a lawyer in Rome at midnight. I don't speak to like'the boss. That's what you're thinking.
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Unknown B
But I could just enjoy the theater and the newsworthi of it. Alas, that didn't last long. Let me just tell the story of an arrest. Tommy learned that you can't have a Camera on the precincts of the court. You can't film anything in court. It's one of the things we learned at this sort of crash course for him. So he's standing outside the court and there's a rape gang that has been on trial for weeks and it's judgment day. So the trial is over, by the way, and everyone's coming in early with their prison bag because if you're convicted, you go straight to jail. So you bring some clothes with you. And as they come in, Tommy asks each of them, how do you feel about your chances today? How do you feel about your chances today? You've seen that a million times by a million reporters.
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Unknown B
That's what you ask on Judgment Dayane. And suddenly that's all he's saying, by the way. Now they're swearing at him, they're spitting at him because they know who he is and they maybe had an intuition they were going to jail. They did. Suddenly a police van pulls up, the door open, half a dozen cops arrest him and he's the one that goes to jail. Yeah, I think he may have told you the story. Not even a 10 minute trial. And they put him.
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Unknown A
They put him in a bad tr.
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Unknown B
They did.
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Unknown A
Where he got beat half to death.
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Unknown B
It was just absolutely terrible. And so I've stayed even though he doesn't work for me, he hasn't worked for me in years. I stay in touch with him because sometimes I think no one's helping them. Like when brought him to Canada. We did.
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Unknown A
That was just before I interviewed him. We were supposed to interview him in Alberta. And that broke apart because. Right. What happened to him in Canada?
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Unknown B
You know what? He was arrested. The British High Commission brought something to Canada's attention. They arrested him. But we managed to get him out of jail and we managed to convince the government to let him finish his tour. He gave a speech in Toronto and to fly home. No charges, no nothing. And I think. And I dealt a little bit with the. The immigration people. I don't think they knew what they were getting into. I think the British government sort of pumped their head full of this guy'a danger.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
And like they had a whole team.
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Unknown A
Well, it's not like you'd. Unless you'd been following this. It's not like you'd understand what the hell was going on. I think can't even understand it. If you do follow.
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Unknown B
Yeah. I think the Canadian police, Border police regretted listening to.
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Unknown A
Well, I think Tommy told me that the policeman who arrested him treated him well.
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Unknown B
Actually is that right it is. I think they were rebel fans. And I went in with them and I think. And I said. I said, look, just. I said, I'm used handling this guy. Release him into my custody. I promise he'll get on the plane and leave him. We're done. And we basically promised the police that we would do the event in Toronto and then he would fly home. And I don't know if they were worried about and because if they were gonna have some sort of legal procedure in Canada that would take weeks or months. And so between Tommy and me and we hired some great lawyers, we sort of convinced the Canadian government just let this guy go home. Otherwise you're in for this whole thing and you don't even know what you're getting into. But ye. Yeah, you know, the police abused law.
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Unknown B
Let me tell you one last story. This was after your interview with him. So Tommy's in jail right now, as we mentioned, because he published that video to Twitter contrary to a judge. Sile. Don't. That's right. And so it's a contempt of court. He's a civil prisoner. He should not be in solitary confinement. He's been treated abusively. That's over here. But Tommy was arrested under the Terrorism act, right?
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Unknown A
Yes. That gave him access to his phone, which he refused to hand over.
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Unknown B
The British Terrorism act is an astonishing piece of legislation. I'd say maybe it's like the American Patriot Act. It's designed for extreme terrorist cases. So there's a section of the. Theoretically that you're allowed to arrest someone for no charge, search them with no warrant, ask them questions, they have no right to remain silent. And you can see their documents, including their phone. You can demand their cell phone password. All of this without a warrant, without anything, with no cause whatsoever. And they can hold you. I think it's for six hours. And you've got to answer questions for six hours.
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Unknown A
Those are long. Six hours.
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Unknown B
They are. And the crazy thing is he didn't ask Tommy about terrorism. No one has ever accused him of being a terrorist. They asked him about his politics and about his rallies and what does he think of Britain. They asked him politics and journalist questions. And then they said, give us your phone password. He said, I'm not going to because I have confidential sources there. People who will being victims of these rape gang who don't trust police and you're gonna reveal them. So he's been charged. So here's the thing. If you comply and answer questions for six hours and give them all your stuff, you can go. But if you don't give them the password then you're being charged under the Terrorism Act. And how terrifying does that look? Yged under the terror Tommy Robinson charged under the terrorism af so that's a live case that's moving forward right now.
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Unknown B
And by the way, I think that the government was able to crack his phone anyways, but they'll get used any trick they can to get him.
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Unknown A
Is there anything that the people who are watching and listening can do to help him at the moment? Like what? What would be helpful?
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Unknown B
Well, I'm not speaking of confidence anymore because it has been. It's public now. Elon Musk has came in to help fund the legal battle.
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Unknown A
Oh, okay.
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Unknown B
Oay.
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Unknown A
So that's taken care of.
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Unknown B
And the only reason I'm saying that in public is that it was released publicly.
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Unknown A
Oh, when did that come out?
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Unknown B
That was a. In the last month.
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Unknown A
Okay.
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Unknown B
So Elon Musk is very interesting. He believes in the UK and he's.
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Unknown A
Frustrated and in Germany.
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Unknown B
Yeah. And so it is in the public domain that that happened. So that's sort of incredible.
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Unknown A
And what about pressure from like viewers and listeners? Are there someone that can be written.
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Unknown B
Like they are very. The UK government in my assessment is extremely nervous about how to deal with Trump and Trump's. They should be body Elon Musk.
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Unknown A
Yeah.
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Unknown B
And J.D. vance as well. I'll add in there who said the first nuclear armed Islamic country will be the UK Ye. I guess you got Pakistan already. But. So JD Vance is skeptical of the UK Elon Musk is very skeptical and'been shaking the UK on these issues and he tweeted free Tommy Robinson on New Year's Day. So the UK government doesn't know how to proceed with Trump.
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Unknown A
Well, they know to some degree because they've got Tommy in isolation. That's their strategy. What would they do? That's a strategy that could seriously backfire. I can't see how it can't back.
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Unknown B
And they re proposed Ambassador.
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Unknown A
What are they gonna do? They're gonna. So he dies in prison. That's not going to be good. Or he comes out looking like. Like an the emaciated like you know, broken down survivor of a concentration.
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Unknown B
You said a terrible and I hope it's not prophetic. I am worried that one day he will. That he will meet his demise in prison. And I've talked to him about it and there is one thing you said. What can beers do? I'll mention one thing about me. Elon Musk think thankfully he is picking up the legal bills for two of his various matters. But we have set up a website called tommyrobinsonchildren.com tommyrobinsonschildren.com tommyrobinsonchildren.comt and the funds go, it's a givend go campaign and the money goes into a trust for the children. The money does not go to Tommy, the money does not go to his lawyers, the money does not go to his Mrs. The money goes to the kids. And before Tommy go. Yeah, and before Tommy went away, I met with him in Spain and I said we've got to do this because it's a morbid thing to talk about.
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Unknown B
Yeah, but it is a real possibility and so we have helped.
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Unknown A
Yeah, well he's got it. We stand nine months in solitary and I mean, you know, he's already been through hell and has got his, his traumas to bear, you know, in reality. And so yeah, it's a real nine months, man, that's a long time.
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Unknown B
In the UK they have something called an osmman warning and I'm not sure why's name that way. I'm guessing it was a case, a legal case that gave you that name. Whenever the police have actionable intelligence that someone's coming to kill you, the police have to go visit you in person and hand you this warning where it outlines the genuine threat to your life. I think Tommy has s received 12 osond warnings. Now, some of these cases, they found them prosecuted, convicted and jailed them like he is under constant death threat. And the reason I mentioned that is that's not a rumor or a tweet, that is the police saying shoot, this is so real we have to go and tell him. And by the way, they say you can't do anything about it. Like it gets in your head. And that's one of the reasons I admire him is to handle that existential stress.
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Unknown B
The constant threats to your life. Your own government has declared you enemy in the state. That's the name of one. And Tommy s books, it's well named. The aching injustice of it. All of it. The double standard of all of it. The two tier justice of all of it. And yet he doesn't run away. You said he voluntarily went back to he. Yes. Imagine a man who is maligned and mistreated and abused and yet returns to face his justice. And I told you, the judge knowing.
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Unknown A
Full well what's going to happen to him, he figured that they would give him the maximum sense.
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Unknown B
And maybe I'm a weak man for saying, Tommy, take it down, you've already won. He wouldn't. And so the judge said, I'm giving you the full sentence. The judge, I was there. The judge said, if you take it down, we'll go easy on you. And he wouldn't. And so you asked why I like him. You know, I don't know as much about theology as you do, but I think there's something Christ like about a man who will take on suffering for other people in the pursuit of some ideal that he needs to bring attention to, who will voluntarily suffer in a variety of psychological and physical ways. And so I forgive him any trifle.
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Unknown A
Or any, you know, that's what it looks like to me too. It's like, I see. So you want him to do everything he did and you want him to be perfect. That's your criteria for accepting Tommy Robinson? Yeah, that's, that's. You're asking a bit much there.
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Unknown B
I would say Douglas Murray, who's outstanding y says essentially says if you look and sound like me, a little bit posh, little fancy, wealthy. Yeah, you can say most of what Tommy says most of the time. But a working class guy who's not from a certain. They have a class system at definitely. And Tommy, just like those 14, 400 girls inherham. You know the singer Morrissey, he has that phrase. She was nobody's nothing.
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Unknown A
Ye.
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Unknown B
And I've just got toa squeeze in one more story.
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Unknown A
Okay, so we'll close with that.
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Unknown B
Right after Tommy had. We had. He was arrested in this dawn raid and we got him out of jail. We were very happy about it. There was a young woman in Sunderland named Chelsea who woke up, went to a bar and woke up the next day in a house with five Afghan or Syrian men, half naked. She breaks her way out onto the streets screaming for police. The neighbors wake up and the police come. They do a rape kit, two different DNA samples. Police don't arrest the men. Her brother comes down, fistyuffs. He gets arrested. Then the men are put in a safe place and prosecutors refuse to prosecute. So we hire a lawyer to do a private prosecution and to appeal this. But here's the point. So this law firm, this war criminal law firm I was telling you about, I felt great about it.
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Unknown B
They had just helped Tommy. I said, can you help Chelsea fill out this form? It's a one page form. We want to appeal the prosecutor's decision not to proceed against these men. I don't want Chelsea to do it herself. I don't want to. I want an excellent law firm to fill out this one form. No problem. No problem. The next day, I get an email from the senior lawyer, and I'm not gonna say the name of the fancy firm. We had a meeting about Chelsea's case, and for reputational reasons, we will not take it. So this is. She's not a political person.
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Unknown A
Yep.
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Unknown B
She was a rape victim. But because everyone knows what's happening, this law firm that would actually represent Tommy would not. And all I could think about is she's nobody's nothing. Y. That's the uk. I was furious. They got their. They still wear their wigs there, these lawyers. They wear their fancy wigs and they talk about King's Counsel and they're also goddamn fancy pants. And it's all bullshit. They would not help Chelsea. That was a day of great frustration, revelation for me. And this was the firm that had helped Tommy. But they wouldn't go that extra mile and help Chelsea. In the end, we found a sole practitioner in Manchester that was probably my worst name in dealing with the United Kingdom. Imagine that. We'll pay you.
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Unknown A
You're making money.
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Unknown B
Take the money and help the girl. For reputational reason. She's the rape victim. For reputational reasons.
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Unknown A
Y.
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Unknown B
That's a true story.