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Unknown A
I'll be honest with you. You can clip this and people are going to go crazy. I trust Vladimir Putin more than I do the media coverage.
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Unknown B
Who wears a tracksuit to meet with the President of the United States? I'm not sure if President Trump would even take his call.
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Unknown C
He very well may have completely sabotaged his relationship with the United States at this point. Try to find an American who can name you a single city in Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia. Put America first.
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Unknown D
Such is the most visible assertion I think I've ever heard on television.
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Unknown C
It's always the pencil neck dork with the four eyes.
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Unknown E
Well, how do you face the charge of being a D?
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Unknown D
Well, I accept it. Right.
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Unknown C
How are you going to displow it without sending in the American army and Navy?
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Unknown E
Well, that is a very good question. I mean, Matthew, President Trump's Oval Office blowout with President Zelensky was everything that everyone said about it, no matter which side you're on, extraordinary, Shocking, unedifying, unprecedented. You spent the weekend under a rock. Well, here's a refresher for you. And you think it's respectful to come.
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Unknown A
To the Oval Office of the United.
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Unknown B
States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country? A lot of questions.
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Unknown F
Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.
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Unknown E
Can I ask? No. No.
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Unknown F
We've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble.
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Unknown D
I know.
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Unknown F
He gave you a stupid president, $350 billion.
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Unknown A
You didn't have our military equipment.
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Unknown F
This war would have been over in two weeks. You have to be thankful you don't have the cars. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. Then you tell us, I don't want to cease fire. I don't want to cease fire. I've empowered you to be a tough guy, and I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave, but you're either going to make a deal or we're out.
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Unknown E
Well, what happened next is almost, if not more consequential, zelenskyy. Through the UK an extraordinary summit of 18 world leaders. Most of them expressed unequivocal support for Ukraine. He also met King Charles, notably wearing a very similar outfit to the one he chose for the White House. It caused a bit of a stir and in words that would have been music to maggot ears, the Polish Prime Minister, Donald Tusk said said this 500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians. Well, quite now, the US could not be clearer that it wants Europe. To raise his game on defending Europe. Now, European leaders appear to be finally getting that memo. Zelenskyy's decision to fight his call in the Oval Office has raged many Republicans, but his popularity has rocketed at the same time at home and in Europe. Trump supporters, meanwhile, are thrilled that the president and Vice President Vance took him to task in full public view.
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Unknown E
Maybe everybody actually got a bit of what they really wanted, whether it should have happened or not. And for those claiming that Trump is naive or even mercenary for thinking he can make a peace deal with Putin, well, listen to a clip that was sent to me, interview I did with President Bill Clinton about 10 years ago in which he told me how he dealt with Vladimir Putin.
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Unknown G
I think the right strategy most of the time is, but it's frustrating to people in your line of work. You should be brutally honest with people in private, and then if you want them to help you, try to avoid embarrassing them in public. Now, sometimes they do things which make it impossible for you to keep quiet. But by and large, I found all the people I dealt with appreciated it if I told them the truth. And they also appreciate it when I didn't kick them around in public for as long as I couldn't kick them around. So, you know, that's my experience.
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Unknown E
And if you didn't ever renege on a personal, personal agreement he made to you, he did not that behind closed doors he could be trusted.
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Unknown G
He kept his word. And all the deals we made.
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Unknown E
Interesting, isn't it? Well, the Trump pit wants peace, not war. And he's in the habit of getting what he wants. Well, join me now is the author of Provoked How Washington Started the New Cold War With Russia and the Catastrophe in Ukraine, Scott Horton, the senior political correspondent at Puck News, Tara Palmeri, author and Times columnist Matthew Said, and the founder of Outkick, Clay Travis. Well, welcome to all of you. Atara, it's up with you as you're making your uncensored debut. Thank you very much indeed for coming on. We appreciate it.
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Unknown H
Thanks for having me.
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Unknown E
When I found that clip of Bill Clinton, someone sent it to me. I looked at the longer version of it. It was interesting because it was many, many years, obviously, after kicking Clinton had last had to deal with Putin. Then he crossed over for quite a brief period. But it was interesting that he said that if you whack Putin in public as the US President, it's not going to work. And that behind the scenes, if you get an agreement with him, we don't even know if Trump has that. But if he has got an agreement, interestingly, you've got a Democrat president saying Putin and his experience would always keep his word when it comes to that kind of personal agreement with an American president. What do you make of that?
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Unknown H
Yeah, I mean, we've seen American presidents flirt with Putin before. You remember George W. Bush said, I looked into his soul. So it's a tactic that's been taken with Putin is to try to relate to him, to try to over inflate him, to try to create a friendship and a bond so that he will uphold his side of the bargain. Now, does Putin always do that? No. But at the same time, I mean, this is the tactic that Donald Trump wants to take right now. He sees the, the flattery of Vladimir Putin as a way to possibly get him to uphold his side of the bargain. Now we have to see what happens. He also tried that with Kim Jong Un. Right. And he thinks that he can sort of negotiate with these dictators, with these world leaders. The only thing that I would say is why would he go and attack, you know, Vladimir Zelensky so publicly?
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Unknown H
Even before this blow up, this Real Housewives style showdown in the middle of the Oval Office? Before that, he was calling him a dictator. It seemed like he was really trying to rush him into this mineral deal and make it look like it was a shakedown of the Ukrainians, even though it wasn't a very significant deal, in my opinion. And then to bring them all there and sort of try to humiliate Zelensky, maybe he's doing that for Putin. He knows that Putin loves it and like it and he thinks Slavs are stronger. Negotiating him with Putin, I don't know, but I think he thinks he can create some sort of friendship with him in the same way that other presidents have tried to do. We'll see if he's actually able to do this.
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Unknown E
Yeah, I mean, Clint Travis, what's interesting is when you watch the television news, say in the UK post that bust up in the Oval Office, and you compare it to what I watched on, say, Fox News this morning. Very, very different take on what happened. A lot of Americans feeling that Zelenskyy did disrespect Trump. And J.D. vance, a lot of people outside of America feeling it was the Other way around. For what it's worth, my take was, I bet this is the kind of fiery debate they have a lot behind the scenes, particularly about warfare. We just don't normally see it on camera. I don't always pick the healthiest food options. I'm sure you don't either. We're all human and we're all busy. That's why doctors created field of Greens. One delicious glass of field of greens. It's like nutritional armor for your body. Each fruit and vegetable in this drink were selected by a doctor for specific health benefit.
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Unknown E
There's a heart health group, lungs and kidney groups, metabolism. It's all very complicated. But not with field of greens because it's all in there. It gives me energy, but it also gives me the confidence that I could be traveling or shock horror enjoying a sneaky burger and I'll still be getting all the nutrition my body needs daily. Only field of greens makes you the better health promise. Your doctor will know this. To improve health or you'll get your money back, we've teamed up to give you a 20% discount on your first order. Just use promo code peers@brickhousenutrition.com peers. That's code piers@brickhousnutrition.com piers I hope that.
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Unknown A
We'Re moving closer towards a ceasefire and that even the flare up that we saw in the Oval Office is not going to stop it. Because I think Piers, on a big picture here, I haven't heard anyone say they think that Ukraine can evict Russia from their territory. And also we know basically we've got a modern day Maginot line that's been created. Trench warfare. Neither side is moving very much yet. We've had hundreds of thousands of people killed and wounded on both sides and that's continuing to this day. I actually think the clip that you played with Bill Clinton is super fascinating and I wanted to kind of build on what Tara said and also what you said. Pierce, think about this. Let's think about the interpersonal relationship between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, right? These guys have to talk. They have to meet. If you are Trump and you had to choose, who do you trust more?
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Unknown A
Vladimir Putin or the left wing legacy media that accused you of only winning the 2016 election because Russia bought $100,000 or so in Facebook ads and they alleged that you were somehow a Manchurian candidate for Russia and you knew that none of that was true and all of the steel dossier came out and the way they covered you sometimes. And again, I'm Kind of diving into the psychology. But I do think it's important. Sometimes, even when you don't have a great relationship, when people have lied about your relationship and you know it to be untrue, that can lead to you trusting each other more. And I'll be honest with you, and you can clip this and people are going to go crazy. I trust Vladimir Putin more than I do the media coverage of Trump's relationship with Vladimir Putin in the United States in 2016, 2017, 2018.
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Unknown A
That doesn't mean I think Vladimir Putin is a great guy or that I in some way believe that he should have invaded Ukraine. He never should have. But remember, he didn't invade while Trump was president. As soon as Trump was gone, he suddenly did. That suggests to me that he actually respects Trump and what Trump might do and feared that more than he did Joe Biden. And that mutual respect means that. I think we could get a solution here. And final thought, when you mediate, and I've had to mediate as a warrior a lot over the years, Pierce, or probably some people out there, when you get divorced, nobody comes in and they say, the other side is evil. You are 100% right, and the other side is evil. You are a paragon of virtue. You're all that's good in the world. In order to meet some sort of agreement, you have to presume that neither side is 100% pure and that neither side is 100% evil.
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Unknown A
It seems to me like some people just want Trump to say Vladimir Putin is evil over and over again. And Trump is saying, wait, do you want a solution? Do you want a ceasefire? Do you want peace or not? Because if that's your goal, that is not the public posture that I can adopt. And I think that's a big part of this story. I think Trump is more likely to get his peace than Biden was by far, even if it might sometimes be a bit messy. Bull in a China Shop style in the meantime.
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Unknown E
Okay, Matthew, you were shaking your head. I don't think in unanimous agreement with what you're hearing there. So why are you so objecting to what Clay says? A lot of what he said could make sense. I mean, we don't really know, but it could make sense.
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Unknown D
Well, I wanted to make a couple of points, if I may. The first is, I don't know when the interview between you and Clinton took place, but I'm guessing before 2014, it was. Clinton was one of the signatures to the Budapest memorandum in 1994, where Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear weapons and a treaty with the UK and the US and Russia, and he breached it after 2014. That was the key deceit. He played for time. He took us for a ride. And I think if you were to re interview Clinton now, he would say that he was completely shafted along with the rest of the signatories and most particularly the Ukrainian people. Putin is a bully. The psychology, I think is completely clear to most right minded people around the world. And the only signal that bullies respect is not words on bits of paper, but steel.
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Unknown D
You have to stand up to them. I think we were way too slow in giving Ukraine the weapons that it needed, not necessarily to win the war, but to send a signal to Putin that he needed to sue.
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Unknown E
But given we are where we are today and Trump has inherited this as of January 20th, I had a conversation with the President a few days before the inauguration and he'd just been told about the death numbers on the battlefield in this Ukraine war. He was genuinely horrified. It was something like, I think he said it publicly a few days ago. It's about 100,000 people had died in six weeks on both sides. And he said it was like the killing fields of the first World War. We just had rolling open fields and people mowing each other down. And he was genuinely, in my conversation with him, genuinely determined to stop this. So I do think it's an interesting thing where the left or the liberal world, if you like, are all going completely nuts at Trump again, as they often do. And yet here you have a Republican president who genuinely seems to me from the moment he first came to power and now is somebody who prefers peace to war, which is unusual for Republican presidents.
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Unknown D
Well, I completely agree with Trump's analysis that Europe has free ridden on American taxpayers for decades. Trump wasn't the first to warn about it. Eisenhower did, Kennedy gave a speech about it. Reagan, Clinton, Obama even talked about it. And Europe have serially failed to step up effectively. American taxpayers, and I think in particular of the blue collar workers, some of the most hardworking people in the world, have funded European welfare states. I agree with that analysis. But I'll just say this. Zelensky and Ukraine are fighting for their country. When borders are breached, it sends a signal to all tyrants in the world that they can do the same. America leading that world order, paying a disproportionate share of the burden, I completely acknowledge that has led to a situation where the world has benefited from a very long period of peace. If you look at it historically, the number of people dying to war in the post war period and particularly since the end of the Cold War is very low and the whole world has had an uplift in prosperity that this species hasn't seen for 250,000 years.
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Unknown D
I don't want America, a country I hugely admire, to walk away from that doing a deal with Putin. You talked about peace, peers. You do a deal with Putin that does not have a security guarantee and we'll be back here in the same.
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Unknown E
Way that I don't disagree, that is.
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Unknown D
Critical for American interest.
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Unknown E
I wouldn't trust Putin personally as far as I could throw him, frankly. I'm going to come to you, Scott, for an overview of all this in a moment. Listen, first of all, I've got a guest joining us who's President Trump's senior advisor, Jason Miller. Jason, great to have you back on uncensored. It's a fascinating moment in history, this where Donald Trump, as he's been signaling he would before, during and after his election, has constantly railed against Europe for not divvying up enough of the responsibility, both financially and militarily, to defend itself. And he did this in his first term. That's why so many NATO countries ended up paying a lot more money, but only as much as they were supposed to. That was down to Donald Trump. And I feel like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like this is a central tenet of his attitude now, which is why does America keep having to be the global policeman?
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Unknown E
Why, when there's a war erupting in Europe, is Europe not taking the lion's share of responsibility? Is that how you would categorize his overview position? The IRS is the biggest election agency in the world. And with April 15th now fast approaching, it's more aggressive than ever. It forceful is ramped up in 2025. And if you owe back taxes or have unfiled returns, waiting is not an option. The longer you do, the worse it gets. April 15th marks another tax year that has passed you by. Smart move is to get ahead but never contact the IRS alone. Let the experts at Tax Network USA handle this for you. Why? Well, not all tax resolution companies are the same. Tax Network USA has a preferred direct line to the irs, meaning they know exactly which agents to deal with and which to avoid. They have proven strategies to settle tax problems in your favor.
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Unknown E
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Unknown B
Pierce well, Piers, that's part of the equation, but it's not all of it. And importantly, what I point to is what President Trump has said in a lot of his recent speeches. He said it at CPAC a week or so back, and he's also said it several other times that he really views his lasting legacy as being the peacemaker. Think about his first term when he brought about peace in the Middle east, of course, by the Abraham Accords. You look how he was able to help get to a ceasefire in the Middle east so far already just, just a matter of days before he was sworn in. And he wants to stop the killing. And the issue, I think the broader issue, the Europeans in particular, is that nobody else is coming forward with a plan. There are a lot of people who have different ideas about what defines victory as far as which territory is kept, which territory is ceded, what other concessions on either side might have to be made.
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Unknown B
But the only person talking about stopping the killing is President Trump. And Piercers, you referenced an important point or conversation you had with President Trump previously about the losses that Ukraine has suffered. But keep in mind, Ukraine is effectively going to have a lost generation from a couple of aspects. Number one, you have a total it's over a million people who've either been killed or wounded. Now, that's including both sides during this war of the past three years. You have another 800,000 to a million women and children who've left Ukraine in Pierce. They're never coming back. Just to be clear on that, if they left Ukraine, they're not coming back. You look historically with Ukraine, what happened after World War I, World War War II, even with economic collapse after the fall of the Iron Curtain, you're going to have this lost generation. And if Zelensky does not take advantage of this opportunity now to stop the killing, Ukraine could be irreparably harmed.
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Unknown B
And that's what I think President Trump looks at and says, why are we being taken to the precipice of World War iii? Why are we allowing this IDIOCY to continue. Hundreds of billions of dollars. So many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. We have to stop this.
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Unknown E
It's interesting to see the different reactions to what happened in the Oval Office. I think we can all agree it was pretty unedifying and probably shouldn't have been conducted in public that last 10 minutes in particular. But to your mind, what was the real catalyst for the flare up there? Because for 40 minutes or so, it was a pretty reasonable free rolling encounter with the media where I was learning quite a lot, actually, about the various positions. I thought it was quite informative. Then it all kicked off and became quite personal. What do you think it was that really enraged both President Trump and J.D. vance into going after Zelenskyy?
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Unknown B
Well, I would say that it started even well before that. I think this, again, this is from my perspective. I've certainly spoken with a number of people in the room, and that's the great thing about having this on television, is that the transparency, that's for everybody to see exactly how this played out. But there was clearly an understanding from folks in the administration that Zelenskyy was going to sign up or show up that day and sign this economic agreement. And to make sure people understand what that is. That was something that Zelenskyy initially had actually suggested. It's something that would help lead for reconstruction efforts within Ukraine, also make sure that the US Is being PA for its investment and that there'd be a economic cooperation going forward that would help with that reconstruction, also with the peace and stability. But it was very clear from the beginning when Zelensky showed up, that he did not want to get a piece deal done.
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Unknown B
That's why you saw some very tough comments earlier today from National Security Advisor Mike Waltz, who said that until Zelinsky says that he wants to get this piece deal done, that it's not clear that he actually wants to move forward with anything. So from my perspective, from the second he got out of the truck and he's wearing his bespoke tracksuit out of complete disrespect. I mean, first of all, it's not even normal camo fatigues or whatever he has. It was a bespoke tracksuit. Who wears a tracksuit to meet with the President of the United States? I know he wore the same tracksuit. I guess he has multiple bespoke tracksuits. I don't know a couple days later with the king. But it was clear that he was not there to actually get a peace deal and to get an economic agreement. Done that Zelenskyy was there to blow the whole thing up.
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Unknown B
President Trump wants to get a peace deal done, but you gotta have Zelensky cooperating.
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Unknown E
Okay. On the attire, I don't think it was an actual tracksuit. And what I would say is that there were plenty of pictures, as you know, of Winston Churchill, who never wore a suit to the White House during World War II when he went there. I don't think he really. Does it really matter that you've got a wartime leader who actually, probably just for comfort, never mind anything else turns up, doesn't wear a suit for meetings? I mean, why do people care?
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Unknown B
Well, I think it matters a lot because, number one, it wasn't even Zelensky's normal. I know he kind of has his normal olive drab attire that he wears kind of the wartime look. But actually, if you go to my x feed at JasonMiller, you'll see I posted a story this morning where they had commentary from. It was a specially design and I say tracksuit. It looks like a tracksuit. I don't know, Piers, you might have fancy. It's not a tracksuit, but it was literally.
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Unknown E
He was smarter than Elon Musk. Here's what I'm saying. He was as smart or smarter than Elon Musk, who conducts press conferences from the Oval Office wearing a T shirt. So what's the difference?
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Unknown B
Well, a couple of things. Number one, Elon is not a leader of a country. Elon is someone who's being supportive. He's someone who's a tech genius. He's not there to talk about world peace. He's talking there about how he can be more efficient with government operations and also government spending. But when you're showing up to get a peace deal, an economic cooperation deal done, then you should at least show up in a respectful manner. And I think the fact that Vladimir Zelensky showed up, and I know you disagree with my assessment, but to me, it looks like a tracksuit, whether it's a designer tracksuit, whatever. Just it wasn't even his normal kind of the camo with olive drab thing fatigues. It did not look like Zelensky was serious. But it was also very clear as Zelensky started speaking with members of the administration, that he was not serious about getting this deal done.
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Unknown B
President Trump. And I can I say this over and over, because I've spoken directly with the president, as I know you have. I know how the president views his lasting legacy. I know how much he cares. Here's the important thing, President Trump is the only person talking about stopping the killing. That's why I was, quite frankly, horrified. Even some of our allies over the weekend were talking about getting back to getting back to deals and winners and losers. But the only person who says I want to stop the killing is President Trump. I think that really says something.
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Unknown E
It seems to me we've reached a stage in this where President Zelensky is saying, look, I'm hesitant to sign the minerals deal, which I think makes perfect sense. By the way. It's a really smart way of President Trump saying to his supporters, this is not going to cost us anything. I'm going to get the money back to the minerals thing. I have an ongoing relationship. And unless I'm wrong, his position about the security backstop, if you like, is that if Ukraine is full of American contractors digging the minerals out of the ground, then Putin will not attack. Now, Zelenskyy's argument, which he tried to make, I think in the room and probably could have made it better if he hadn't been trying to speak English, his third language. But his argument I think was, well, it hasn't stopped Putin attacking despite the fact there are American businesses already in Ukraine and American companies and buildings and factories and so on.
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Unknown E
Why would it stop him, by that logic, from attacking if there were lots of mineral workers on the ground? What would you say to that?
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Unknown B
Well, I'd say a couple of things here and there's certain things that since I'm still involved with president on the political side and with his confirmation efforts and not actually inside his national security team, to be very clear on that, keep in mind, Piers, that things that you and myself and other guests on your program are seeing, we don't see the entire picture necessarily. There's a lot more that's going on with regard to Ukraine, with Russia. We've seen all these other things, whether it be prisoner releases, all these things, everything is interconnected towards trying to get to a peace deal and to stop the killing. The fact of the matter is, is that I think Zelinsky is, I think, flexing a little bit too hard on what defines a win, what doesn't define a win. When the President and his team, his administration, Marco Rubio and Mike Walls and Scott Besant, they're looking at the 360 degree picture here and saying we have the strategy to do this.
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Unknown B
Now, if the United States is there involved in a major economic deal, in a way, then. Well, first of all, back up one second. As you correctly pointed out earlier, Putin invaded Ukraine under Obama. He also did under Biden, but did not during the four years of President Trump. We get this deal done. The United States has economic deal that's in place that is going to go more to helping the stability and peace in the region than just about anything else. And so I also, I do think you make a really important point here with regard to the language dynamic. And look, as someone who has a tough time with my first language, with English, I understand how things can get lost in translation, literally and figuratively. And so I do give a lot of grace with that. And so things can be misunderstood or mischaracterized, but you could tell from everything, from the body language and even in the follow up comments that President Zelensky has made since that meeting in the Oval Office that he doesn't care about the, the, the disrespect that was shown at that moment.
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Unknown B
Someone clearly got to him and said, you need to tell the American people that you're appreciative for the hundreds of billions of dollars that have been spent in defense of their country so far. But what we need to see is that Zelensky is committed to getting to a real peace deal, to getting to a real economic deal. The balls in his court on this one, I know mixed metaphors a bit, but President Trump, when he looked at President Zelensky in the eye and said, you don't hold the cards here. We all see what the trend lines look like. We see the number of people that Ukraine is losing on a weekly. You see what's happening. Ukraine needs to get to a peace deal. The opportunity is there. But if Zelensky is not going to take it, that is bad for his country, it is bad for his people.
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Unknown B
And quite frankly, I think it's a damn shame for every additional person that dies unnecessarily.
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Unknown E
Final question, Jason. I gotta go. But if you were talking directly to President Zelensky right now, what would you tell him to do to get back in the room at the White House with President Trump?
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Unknown B
Simple. President Trump doesn't play games. I would call up, I'm not sure if President Trump would even take his call directly, but I would call whoever President Zelensky is speaking with in the administration and say, I want to get a peace deal done. I want to get an economic agreement with the United States done. I'm ready to sign it. If you want me to sign it and fax it or scan an email, whatever, carrier pigeon, however you want me to do it, I'm ready to do it now. I'm serious. No more gay. I want to get this done. I appreciate the fact, President Trump, that you're so committed to stopping the killing that's happening in Ukraine, that you spent so much time and effort to try to get to this. I want to be a good partner with you, with the United States. I'm sorry about what happened in the Oval Office, but I want to stop the killing as well.
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Unknown B
Let's get these deals done and start moving ahead. It's real clear, real straightforward, and as you and I both know from our relationships with President Trump, he's a straight shooter. That's what he wants to hear.
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Unknown E
Jason Miller, great to have you back on our session. Thank you very much.
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Unknown B
Thank you, sir.
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Unknown E
Let's go back to panel. Scott Horton, you've been listening patiently to all of this. What did you make, first of all, of what Jason Miller said there. Do you think that's an accurate characterization of where we are with, with this peace effort?
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Unknown C
Yeah, I think that's right. I'm, I'm not concerned about the clothes, but I think he was right that what caused the disagreement was Zelensky, you know, very publicly telegraphing that he does not support this deal. He essentially said, no, Russia still has to lose the war and leave Ukraine first. And then plus, on top of that, he wants security guarantees from the United States, I guess, NATO membership in Article 5 protection, before he's willing to go along. And that was when he was interrupting. And then he, I think this had to have been deliberate. He decided to call the vice president by his first name or by his initials. He goes by there, JD and, and just said, come on, what negotiations? You can't negotiate with a guy who breaks all his promises. This and that. And as a Vance put it, I'm surprised. I can't believe you're trying to litigate this here in this public setting in front of the media like this, rather than in a private conversation.
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Unknown C
I think this had to have been deliberate that he essentially figured that he's not going to get anything from Trump. As your previous guest said, Trump has been badmouthing Zelensky so bad long before this. I think he already figured that he has no cards to play with Trump, so he might as well start his reelection campaign now if he's ever going to hold elections again and, and do this PR stunt for his audience back home. But he very well may have completely sabotaged his relationship with the United States at this point. I would also like to add, and I'll hear anybody hardly ever say this that we shouldn't be doing this mineral deal at all. I mean, first of all, there are hardly any rare earth minerals in Ukraine in the first place. There's a great piece in Bloomberg News about that, how this is completely misnomer anyway.
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Unknown C
But secondly, as Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, and President Trump both said, and as you were just discussing with his guy Miller there, that this is some sort of half assed war guarantee, a security guarantee, that if we put Americans on the ground there, this will be some kind of tripwire for war, like our troops in Korea. And so therefore Russia will never try that. But we don't want that anyone. We want to give them membership in NATO. And Article 5, this is essentially none of America's business at all. We need to get out of there. If the American people need to be paid back for the war, then I suggest they start with seizing the bank accounts of the Biden family and the Kagan family. And maybe we just leave it at that. Maybe Doge can save us the rest of the $200 billion firing government employees that we don't need, but we need to wash our hands of this.
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Unknown C
If you go back to the end of the Second World War and the creation of NATO, the argument at the time was that of course, if this was just imperial Russia dominating Eastern Europe, we wouldn't care. But this is communism. This is Joseph Stalin and the global totalitarian revolution. We have to draw the line at the Elbe River. We can't let them go any further west than that. But those days are long gone. Security for Europe is Europe's problem. America first doesn't mean, like George W. Bush, be selfish and belligerent and knock people down and take their stuff. It means defend America first. Enough of the empire, renoun role as global policemen and all of this stuff and just come home. And you notice Pierce the Hawk on this panel said the same thing that Biden says, the same thing that all of these dorks say.
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Unknown C
Either say it's Churchill and Hitler or it's the bully on the playground. And you notice it's never the star of the baseball team who actually beat up the bully on the playground. It's always the pencil neck dork with the four eyes who needed to be saved from the bully over and over again who invokes these analogies. And yet do they ever explain what they're talking about? What support is America supposed to give Ukraine that's going to bloody Putin's nose and force the Russians out? We all know.
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Unknown E
Okay, look, we've just had the alleged dork come up as you were saying that? Matthew Sidis, quick to respond. Matthew, I mean, I thought it was very well laid out earlier that if you look at the relative size of Europe collectively compared to Russia, compared to the United States, actually what you saw this weekend potentially was the European Union plus the UK Left the EU but are now seemingly leading this saying, all right, well, we're going to step up here. All we want from United States is to be a backstop, that there is a cover if the shooting starts, but we will actually do the heavy lifting of troops on the ground and the rest of it. And that America may have a kind of behind the scenes backstop role. I mean, Matthew, I could see that eventuality happening.
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Unknown D
Well, the reason.
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Unknown E
Have you faced the charge of being a dork?
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Unknown D
Well, I accept it. I'm a bit of a dork. If that means geek, I don't mind that as an insult. But I do think it's worth saying that the reason why Trump's aspiration of bringing the world to peace has a contradictory element is to the extent that we allow Putin to benefit from the invasion to bank land to get his hand on some of the mineral wealth, not raw, as Trump calls it, rare earth metals, but the other deposits that do have a market value is it will incentivize others to invade borders. We live in a globally interconnected world. The last contributor, there are intricate supply chains which America relies on, not just of minerals, but many other things, too. People don't seem to understand the level of global cooperation beneath the surface of our consciousness. Internet, domain names, all sorts of things. When that starts to break down, it will affect Americans.
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Unknown D
I agree that Europe needs to pull its weight at the moment. It is not capable of deterring future. If there was a guarantee only provided by Europe, it would be not worth the paper it was written on. I agree with you. Europe needs to spend up, I argue this weekend for a 5% expenditure on deferring Poland, 4.1% Poland at the moment, and a proportionate decrease in all other areas of the budget. Because I want to draw America in to the argument that I think is fundamental. Americans have benefited from the global rules based order. Yes, they've been ripped off to an extent. But if that disappears and that last contributor, we don't care about Europe living under totalitarian rule. That isn't good for Europeans. That's not a morally uplifting proposition. That's big, but it's bad for Americans too. Okay, that's the argument. All right, Tara, even if it's dorkish.
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Unknown E
Tara, what do you think is the most achievable outcome here? Because my take on it, but what it's worth is that it is highly likely if they get to a peace deal, that there will be a freezing along current territorial lines. There won't be a granting of sovereignty to Russia over the 20% of Ukraine they've taken, but they will be able to retain their occupation, for want of a better phrase, that Europe, led by the UK And France and Germany and others will put troops on the ground as peacekeepers along that border. That America will do the minerals deal. I think it's more likely than not, notwithstanding the fact that the Scots says it, it doesn't really mean anything. Even more reason in that case for Ukraine to do it. Frankly, it only costs a load of money then. I can see that. That being the scenario which we could end up with in a few weeks.
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Unknown E
What do you think?
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Unknown H
I think what President Trump is thinking about right now is the fact that the war in Ukraine is very unpopular with Americans. They hear price tags like $50 billion in the budget for Ukraine, and it just does not sell, really, on both sides of the aisle. I think they just want the war to end. And they probably at home are not thinking about the nitty gritty of how much, you know, land does Vladimir Putin end up winning. The minerals deal is kind of a smoke and mirrors thing that I think Donald Trump did to sell to his base. Like, listen, if we give them more money, well, at least we're making something off that, right? We have a mineral deal. Well, minerals are dirty. They're probably all under a bunch of Russian tanks in the eastern part of the country. They may not be as valuable as they sound.
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Unknown H
But if it's a deal and it's something that makes Americans money, when all they're hearing all every day is about the debt that we're in, the fact that we need to doge operation to slash through federal spending. You know, people are losing their jobs because of it. And it's not just Democrats in Washington. It's people that, you know, work in the forestry and everything around the country. They want to at least hear, okay, we're getting something for our involvement in Ukraine. I don't think when you're selling it at home, the specifics really matter. Right. But at the same time, Zelensky is pulling on the American heartstrings. He's been doing that for many years. And his message is incredibly, you know, compelling images of war, women, children fleeing their homes that Worked for America for a long time. It was Slavia, Ukraine, from both sides of the aisle.
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Unknown H
I don't know how. How salient that is right now, but I just don't think Americans are going to care about the details and they are going to like the narrative that the Europeans have stepped up and become more involved in this because it just makes common sense.
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Unknown E
Yeah.
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Unknown H
Why haven't they been contributing?
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Unknown E
Well, I think. I think it's been shameful. It's been a complete dereliction of duty by successive European governments, including our own. And thank God our prime minister now is finally stepping up and we're significantly increasing. I think we should go a lot higher. Clay, let me. Yeah, sorry.
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Unknown C
I want to apologize to your other guests there for the insult. I shouldn't have said that. But my point was, is that all we ever hear is these analogies about the playground. We don't ever hear anyone explain how this is supposed to work, that America and. Or Europe reverse Russia's gains on the ground. We can't without sending in the 82nd Airborne in the US Navy.
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Unknown E
I do think that's. I do think that's a very salient point because most military people I've talked to at any level have all agreed. I'll come to you, Clay. Now, they've all agreed that Ukraine cannot win this war and it cannot now kick Russia out of the 20% that it's currently occupying. It is a stalemate that's been like this for eight, nine months. All that's happening is that thousands of people are dying on a daily basis and the carnage, as Trump says, has to stop. I mean, the more worrying thing for me about the geopolitical aspect of this play is Jason Miller said that Elon Musk doesn't get involved in the war stuff. Well, actually, he did at the weekend. He responded to someone on Twitter on X, his own platform, in which he said, yes, when this person suggested America should pull out not just the United nations, but also out of NATO.
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Unknown E
Now, America pulling out of NATO would be, in my opinion, a catastrophic development. In all this, NATO is what stands collectively between, I would say, the world eventually stumbling into nuclear war and not. What do you feel about that?
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Unknown A
So, several things. One CNN poll over the weekend, building on What Tara said, 78% of Americans want a ceasefire. I think she's right where the squiggly line is drawn. The average American, I'm not sure could put Ukraine on a map if the other countries weren't labeled around it. They're not going to get involved in the nitty gritty over where that line is drawn. Second part. And I think this is really important and it kind of tied in with your discussion with Jason Miller. It's not only that Trump wants peace, it's what does Zelensky want? I think Zelensky, because of all the European leadership peers you saw everybody line up and send their message about how they supported him after the Oval Office meeting. He sees himself as Winston Churchill. You're British. Can you imagine if you saw yourself as the modern day version of Winston Churchill and then the end of your Churchillian lore was you allowed 20% of Ukraine to go over to the bad guys.
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Unknown A
That destroys his entire worldview of how he sees himself. And I think that's why.
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Unknown E
Hang on, hang on a second. Because actually, interestingly, yesterday I was reading a very interesting picture about why at the end of World War II, Churchill acquiesced when Russia decided to keep Poland at the time. Right. Which was incredibly controversial. And Churchill did just accept that this was one of the prices that had to be paid for bringing the whole thing to an end. So in a way, I do see a bit of a parallel there. You've got to make very hard decisions. And I also think there's a less. Well, the Churchill parallel goes further. I think that I was in Kyiv four months after the war. Stone, I said to you do remind me of Churchill and the way that you rallied your people almost single handedly in those first few days and weeks when everyone just assumed Russia would steam through and take Kyiv and that would be it.
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Unknown E
So I think there are legitimate parallels there. But I think the idea that this leads to America leaving NATO.
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Unknown A
Well, the concern, Pierce, also for Zelensky probably is Churchill got voted out even after he stood up to Hitler. You know, on the historical analogy, let me hit you with one other thing. I don't agree with leaving NATO. I don't agree. I think Elon Musk sometimes throws things out. The other guess who made an important point. I think this is significant too. We are historically illiterate in the United States, but I think much of the world is also historically illiterate. The only analogy people seem to be able to draw to anything in history is Hitler and World War II. Everything is analogized to that. Where I would point to on this, and I think it's significant, is Russia does not have the ability to roll through other countries. That was the argument that was made early on. Well, if they take Ukraine up next, Poland, this is going to be just like Hitler in World War II.
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Unknown A
No, it isn't to your. There's way more opposition lined up. We have to have a peace and a ceasefire here. But the idea that Putin is in some way a modern day version of Adolf Hitler or that Trump is a modern day version of Adolf Hitler.
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Unknown C
Right.
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Unknown A
We've created this world where anytime someone disagrees with you, well, they're a modern day version of Hitler. It's historically illiterate and frankly it's insulting to anyone who has actually got a scintilla of a brain and has ever studied world history. Frankly, nothing going on in the world today is remotely similar to what happened 80 years ago in World War II.
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Unknown E
I would agree with that, Scott. There's a statement from Donald Trump because there was a headline AP News Ukraine Zelensky says end of war with Russia is quotes very, very far away. And Trump has responded to this copying in the headline by saying this is the worst statement that could have been made by Zelenskyy. America will not put up with it for much longer. It's what I was saying. This guy doesn't want there to be peace as long as he has America's backing. And Europe in the meeting they had with Zelenskyy stated flatly that they cannot do a job without the United States. Probably not a great statement to be made in terms of a show of strength against Russia. What are they thinking? It does seem to me, Scott, that it's all coming to a head here. I don't think it's a coincidence that Elon Musk floats the idea that America leaves NATO.
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Unknown E
He was with Trump all weekend at Mar a Lago. He flew with him back on Air Force One to the White House. These things are not happening in isolation from each other. I think there's a genuine risk here that this could really fracture long held relationship since the end of World War II between the United States and Europe, including potentially a movement to try and get out of NATO, which I never thought we'd see that they come. But you can see the language that's being used now. This is ratcheting up. What do you think?
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Unknown C
I think that would be the greatest thing that we could possibly do for American foreign policy would be to leave the NATO alliance. We should have completely abolished NATO when the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pacts fell apart in 1989 through 1991. Oh, and if you. Well, and by the way, Pierce, the book is in the mail on its way to you right now. And enjoy seeing all the debate about that from back during that time time and how all the expanders themselves even said that the purpose of this is to keep Germany down and Russia out and America the dominant force in Europe and to prevent Germany and Britain and France from just creating their own EU army and guaranteeing their own security, which they could have done. The hawk on the panel agreed and lamented America picking up the cost for European security this whole time.
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Unknown C
Well, here, here only times 1000. As an American, this is. This kind of stuff is absolutely none of our business. And I did not say, as he must have misunderstood me, that it was would have been fine to just abandon Europe to totalitarianism. I'm saying the argument after World War II was about Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union and the totalitarian terrorist state and world revolution. That was the Cold War against communism. That's long over. Vladimir put maybe a strong man and an autocrat of sorts, but Russia is not a totalitarian state. Right. It's essentially a center right conservative Christian government, just like the kind we have here. And so if it did in fact come to dominate Estonia again, so what? We're not talking about the Soviet Union and it absolutely is not worth trading American cities and American lives. And in a real war with Russia, we're talking about by the millions and hundreds of millions in order to protect cities in countries that Americans have never even heard of.
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Unknown C
Try to find an American who can name you a single city in Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia and tell them that. Yeah, but that's okay because your government signed up to trade your hometown for theirs in the event of a conflict with Russia.
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Unknown B
Russia.
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Unknown C
Let Germany and Poland and France and England deal with their own problems. Put America first.
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Unknown E
Okay. Yeah.
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Unknown D
I don't know how often you have been to Russia. I've been there very often. The idea that it is a right of center conservative government similar to what you have in the United States is the most risible assertion I think I've ever heard on television. If I may say so, and if I may just respond to what you said, I think that is ridiculous. There is not a free press. Look at what is happening in Ukraine where they have kidnapped children. I thought you compared it to a center. Right. We can look back at the tape, but either way I agree with you completely that we don't want to escalate to global thermonuclear war. NATO is not just an alliance based on the military. There's a psychological construct. People need to be aware that if they breach the Article 5 guarantee, it will lead to escalation.
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Unknown D
That is what deters nuclear war. And by permitting, if I just finish the point. By permitting Putin to gain a benefit from a war of aggression, from a war of conquest, it sends a signal to all other people who wish to do the same, and they may do so.
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Unknown C
That gets us without sending in the American army and Navy.
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Unknown E
That is a very good question. I mean, Matthew, before I go to Tara, Matthew, on that point, a lot of people echo your sentiments here, but don't have a sensible, logical, workable way that we stop Putin otherwise. I mean, without American forces engaging directly with Russian forces, what do we do?
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Unknown D
So as I said earlier, when anybody aggresses in the way that Putin has done, it shouldn't have happened if after Crimea there'd have been more robust. Now that it has, this is the basic equation. The aggressor needs to pay a price higher than the benefit that they accrue in order to send a signal to them in the future and to all other aggressors. They must not do so because it will not be in their interest. That's why I think the conduct of this war has been mistaken. I would like to have gone harder earlier. I think that if we don't do that, it is more likely that Putin will go again. The previous contributor said he doesn't want to go further. He has said explicitly wants the Baltic states. He wants to create the greater Russian empire. I have no doubt that that is his aspiration.
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Unknown D
I have no doubt that Xi Jinping wants to create a sphere of influence, take over Taiwan unless there is a willingness to hold the line. That's the realism that we need in the world today and that's better. By the way, I agree that Europe has free ridden. I want us to step up. But that alliance between Europe and the United States has been a tremendous force for the good of both of our communities and the wider world.
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Unknown E
Let me bring Tara. Hang on, Scott.
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Unknown H
I was going to make that point that I've traveled all over the country and all over the world. I've been to Afghanistan. I've been to Italy. I've traveled and seen the NATO bases and our troops and our foreign allies who are now, you know, a lot of the NATO troops and our US Bases are not American. They're Polish. They're, you know, they're British, they're French. When we went into Afghanistan and Iraq, you know, who was there with us. We're going to lose those allies in the future and America will be by itself. And I think that we have to think about that in the broader.
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Unknown E
Scott, before you respond, I know you've got to leave us. So you want to just very quickly say what you wanted to say and.
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Unknown A
Then go, Yeah, I was just responding. Vladimir Putin may have aspirations of returning the Russian empire and going back and taking other assets. I don't believe he has the functional ability to do it. So I think this analogy of, oh, if we don't stop it now, we did, right. He's going to get parts of Ukraine, there is going to be a solution, a ceasefire is coming. How do you prevent him from going in again? I would suggest he's not going to do it against Trump because he fears how Trump, right, might respond. My concern is who gets elected in 2029, because I don't think it's coincidental that he saw the weakness in Joe Biden and invaded when he did. I appreciate you guys. I got a radio show to go get you. I love the arguments. And Pierce, appreciate you having me on.
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Unknown E
Great to have you, as always. Thank you very much, Scott. Just on that point, I mean, I do think that is the genuine concern that Zelenskyy has, which he was trying to articulate, probably, again, because of the language thing, he couldn't get it out quite the way I think he intended. But I interviewed him at length two weeks ago for 90 minutes, and there's no doubt the biggest concern he has is deterring Putin from coming back for more of Ukraine. And he wants enough security guarantees, be it from Europe, America, preferably both, I think, is how he sees this, where it is a genuine deterrence. And that's where Europe seems to have got the memo from Trump. If you lead, then we may be prepared to do some kind of backstop support as well. But do you not think that would work?
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Unknown B
No.
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Unknown C
I mean, look, I respect the fact that Zelensky is in a very tough position. He helped to get himself in this very tough position. But the answer is tough. The European war guarantee to what's left of Ukraine, backstopped by the United States, means that your bluff holds until it doesn't. And if it fails, then we go to war with the Russian Federation over who controls deeper Nazca's flop, flop. The oblast between the river and Donetsk that even a lot of Ukrainians can't figure out how to pronounce it doesn't matter to American security. And you know, Robert Kagan, who is one of the principal intellectual authors of the entire doctrine of what he calls benevolent global hegemony, the co founder of the Project for New American Century, one of the architects of Iraq War two and the husband of Victoria Newland he recently wrote that, you know, what comes down to it, Ukraine actually doesn't matter to the United States of America at all.
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Unknown C
For the whole time that the Soviet Union occupied Ukraine during the Cold War, it didn't make a difference whatsoever. Who controls the northern coast of the Black Sea is not part of America's interest. Kagan called the Cold War the good old days. I absolutely dispute that as an avowed enemy of communism. That's not right. That was the good old days. But he is is right that it actually does not matter if Ukraine were to become again the Ukraine, a region of Russia like it had been for hundreds of years, most of it anyway, it does not truly matter. It would be sad, but it doesn't affect American national security. And Zelensky's a fool for not taking the opportunity to quit while he's only so far behind, because no one is going to help him drive Russia out and he can't do it himself. The question now is whether he's going to also lose our key and Odessa or whether he's not.
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Unknown C
If he could get Trump to get Putin to agree to draw the line here, that would be the best case for him. Now, whether Putin would, you know, arm up and reinvade later, I sincerely doubt. I think you guys assume, assume the the premise here that all Putin really wants to do is rebuild the Russian empire, but that's really not true. What actually happened here was America. What he said was that anyone who doesn't lament the fall of the Soviet Union has no heart and anyone who wants it back has no brain. That's the rest of the sentence that they always omit. In fact, the basis of the speech was actually about how he had already saved Russia and fixed everything from how down and bad things used to be. And so it was in no way declaring a doctrine of recreating the Russian empire in the Baltics, in Lithuania and so forth.
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Unknown C
That's not true.
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Unknown E
We're going to leave it there. It's been a fascinating debate. Thank you all very much and Tara, thanks for coming on the first done. Come back again. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
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Unknown H
Thank you.
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Unknown E
B. Uncensored is privately dependent. The only boss around here is me. You enjoy our show. We offer only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without.