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Unknown A
Foreign welcome everybody to Crystal Kyle and friends. Today we have a special episode, a bonus episode that I have here for you. We were able to get an exclusive interview with the Move on director, Rana Epting. Rana, thanks so much for joining me. I appreciate it.
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Unknown B
Oh, thank you for having me.
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Unknown A
So something a little spicy happened the other day and we want to get your commentary on it here. Hakeem Jeffries took a shot both at Move on and Indivisible. And let me read you a little bit here from this Axios piece and I'm curious to get your reaction to it. But here's what they say. Scoop. Democrats are pissed at liberal groups, Move on and Indivisible. They go on to explain that in a closed door meeting for House Democrats this week, there was a gripe fest that's their term, directed at liberal grassroots organizations. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries on Monday complained that activist groups like MoveOn and Indivisible have facilitated thousands of phone calls to members offices. They say, quote, people are pissed. A House Democrat who is at the meeting set of lawmakers reaction to the call. So the thing I find interesting about this is it's people are pissed is the quote.
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Unknown A
But they're not talking about, hey, the Democrats are pissed at Elon Musk and Donald Trump and the destruction of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and all these other things that they're doing. They're pissed because their own base is making phone calls and holding them accountable. So I guess first let me just get your reaction to Hakeem Jeffries here.
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Unknown B
Well, first of all, I wasn't in the room, but I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in that room because that must have been interesting. Look, MoveOn members are regular folks. We have millions of members all across this country. They live in. We have Move on members in every congressional district, every state. And the role that we play is we give people the tool to make democracy work. So all we did was to was to encourage our members to call their member of Congress, share with them their frustration with all that Trump was doing and call on them to say, do whatever you can to unify and pose this dangerous agenda. So we were just doing democracy. So anyone who might be frustrated or pissed, I think the energy is really misdirected. It really should be going towards Trump, Musk, Republicans that are complicit in all of these potential cuts that they're trying to do to Medicaid, to SNAP benefits, to education.
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Unknown B
I mean, we've seen the news to, to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that actually protects people from being frauded by corporations. So really misdirected energy. I don't know what Hakeem actually said in that room. We do work with his office, and they know very well the important role that MoveOn plays in making sure that this democracy lives up to what we all deserve. And that's kind of the whole focus of what we're doing.
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Unknown A
So let me ask you, are your members more fired up now than in the past? Because I seem to remember after 2016, when Trump won, everybody had this feeling that, you know, it's a little bit of a fluke. He lost the popular vote by 3 million votes. And so there was this default sense of we gotta resist. Like the default setting is we gotta resist this. This time around, I'm seeing something quite different. There were a lot of Democratic congresspeople who said, I'm gonna join the Doge Caucus. In Congress, there's been many politicians who are basically looking for areas of agreement and saying interesting things. To me, people like John Fetterman falls all over himself to try to give Trump credit every time he can. But I feel like there's a disconnect between the way the politicians are reacting and the feelings of the base.
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Unknown A
If anything, the sense I get is that the base is even more ready for obstruction and resistance. In fact, I heard somebody say, we're not the resistance this time around. We're the defiance this time around. Are you seeing the same thing where you look at your base and your members and you say, man, these people are really ready to fight, and there's a disconnect with them and the politicians?
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Unknown B
There's definitely a disconnect. But first, I'll say there is no question that this is not 2016. The conditions that elected Donald Trump back then are different set of conditions that elected him in this last election. And I think the Trump 1.0 was really about people were shocked. The country was shocked. And the tens of millions of Americans that did not vote for Donald Trump were shocked that there were people that actually would vote for him. And that's what resulted in that immediate sense of energy that we saw out there. I think in 2024, people were disappointed, depressed, afraid, angry, but not shocked. Right. So, like, that. That manifests in a different way. But I will say the energy with the base, which move on, is a huge slice of the Democratic base. The energy with the base is huge, and it's skyrocketing. I mean, the fact that we drove tens of thousands of calls into Congress and made some lawmakers really mad is just, It's.
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Unknown B
That's not a testament to. We were just doing business as usual. That's how many people took us up on our offer to call their member of Congress. That's them, not us. That's a true symptom of the anger and fear out there and the desire that people want to see their lawmakers fighting, opposing, unifying, together, being crystal clear about what the stakes are and not giving an inch.
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Unknown A
So let me ask you, which Democratic politicians have been most receptive, in your opinion, to the base where they actually seem to be listening, seem to be adjusting, seem to care about the will of the people and the feelings of the people? Which ones have been the best in your experience?
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Unknown B
Okay, well, this is top of my mind. So, like, don't. I'm not making an official list, but I will say I. We've been really impressed with Senator Chris Murphy, Brian Schatz. Cory Booker has done a great job really making plain what Trump and Musk are trying to do. And then on the House side, Maxwell Frost has just been killing it. Greg Kzar from Texas, and you've got Jasmine Crockett, Pat Ryan. I mean, there are plenty of Democrats being the champions we deserve. And the issue is we just need 100% of them on board. Right. And we want to see them out there. We want to see them leverage their microphone to taking the conversation to the people, to their constituents, to their districts, going around their districts, talking about what Trump and Musk are trying to do. And it's as opposed to being more being a little complacent.
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Unknown B
I'm not hearing much from my constituents. So they may not be upset. They may not really be caring. No, they care. And we shouldn't just be waiting around for our constituents to call us. We should be going to them. And that's what we want to see. Out of every single elected Democrat in the House and the Senate.
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Unknown A
Do you have any idea how many phone calls have been made since the election of Trump? Or can you say ones that maybe you guys have kind of spearheaded?
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Unknown B
I can say MoveOn has made. Move on members have made over 25,000 calls to their elected members or senators. And that's either on the nominations of, like, RFK Jr. Or Pete Hegseth or, you name it. How many of these nominees have been frightening? Move on. Members have called their senators. We've also, you know, Move on Members have also called around this potential budget freeze that they've been trying to do. When the OMP released that memo. And, and we saw all the potential cuts that they were going to make that were going to directly impact people's lives. And there have been general calls. Just saying, in the totality of everything I'm seeing Trump do, please stop this, man. This is frightening. We can't allow this to happen. This is not politics as usual. This is not time for bipartisan compromise. Can't compromise with someone who's literally flirting with creating a constitutional crisis with, with disregarding the orders of the judicial branch.
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Unknown B
Like, that is not, this is not so. Anytime we see, like, someone acting as if this is 20 years ago, I think that is, like, a huge red flag and as if that was my elected member, I would be calling and going to their office on the regular.
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Unknown A
So let me ask you about the specific advice, because from my perspective, I look at what's happening here, and I say you can't. When you cross enough red lines, it becomes untenable and maybe even, like, normalizing you to then work with you on stuff. Right. Like, if you make your, if you make yourself clear that I'm an authoritarian, I don't care about the decisions of the courts. Elon Musk is going around the back and, you know, he's, he's basically ignoring court orders and he illegally hacked the treasury and is cutting things left and right.
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Unknown B
Yeah. I'll just say, like, I, I'm not going to lie. Things are very bad, you know, and there's a slew of attacks and a slew of moment after moment where they're just willfully ignoring standard norms and processes and constitutional order. But the silver lining is that their agenda is massively unpopular and will no doubt result in massive backlash from the broad public, not just in Democratic districts or blue states, but in red states and red districts as well, because it's, it's. Their agenda is unpopular with everybody. If you're going to cut Social Security, if you're going to cut Medicare or Medicaid, that doesn't just touch Democrats. And, you know, in liberal cities, that touches people in rural areas in red states. And so it's really, once people start to feel the impact of what they're doing, lo and behold, I think we will have massive public outrage.
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Unknown B
The challenge is, until people actually feel it, will they believe the warnings about what they're trying to do and leap into action to stop it before it happens? And that's the job of organizations like MoveOn and Working Families Party Indivisible and everybody to help us, to help people organize and prevent the bad stuff. From happening before it happens.
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Unknown A
Is the advice to say, hey, you guys should vote no on everything on every cabinet pick. Because from where I'm sitting, if there was a chance Trump would do something good, then I'd say, okay, work with him where you can do something good. But from where I'm sitting, I don't see anything positive. I mean, he signed an executive order on day one to raise drug prices. That's crazy to me. Pardon 50, 1500 January Sixers, including ones who committed violence, including ones who were child sex offenders. Like, when I look at what's going on now, I really do think we need to take a page out of John Boehner and Mitch McConnell's playbook from 2009 when they met in a smoke filled back room and said, we're going to obstruct everything that Barack Obama does. That's where we are now. Is that basically the advice that you're hearing from all of your members who are making these calls?
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Unknown B
I think any United States Senator that voted for any of these Trump nominees will, if they don't regret it already, they will regret. Have we? Have they? Trump and his posse have projected time and time again that they want to run a revenge sinking seeking administration. They want to, you know, gut vital services that Americans depend on. They're cutting resources to the Veterans Administration. So I think any nominee that they're putting in there is just going to help them do this dirty work that is not going to serve the American people, regardless of what property propaganda they put out there. And then on the House side, making Democrats should make sure they leave all options on the table to do whatever they can to prevent these cuts from going through. And that is their job. That is their job is to use every ounce of leverage to slow down and to stop and to prevent Project 2025 from becoming reality.
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Unknown A
So Hakeem Jeffries famously said the other day, I'm trying to figure out what leverage we have. We don't have any leverage. What would your reaction be to, to that argument from him?
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Unknown B
I, I can't read his mind, but I don't think that fared well with the public.
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Unknown A
Oh, no, not at all.
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Unknown B
No. I mean, on one hand, they have a ton of leverage. He has the leverage of even the bully pulpit that he was using in that moment. And I think that foreshadowing that you don't is actually a problem. I wish that instead Hakeem had said more like, we're going to do every single thing we can to protect the American people and all Options are on the table, and we're going to be unified and we're going to make sure that we protect vital services like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, education, what have you. I think what he was trying to say, though, is Republicans are in the majority and it's there. If they want to pass a budget, they've got to get their own votes to do it, because Democrats aren't going to help them make these vital, these cuts to the American people. But maybe I'm giving him a little too much credit, but, yeah, I don't think that that went over too well.
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Unknown A
No, it definitely didn't go over well. And my reaction to many other people was like, if. If this is how you feel, then you're not fit to lead in this moment. We need somebody who's going to lead, who's gonna fight on all fronts. This is what Republicans do, is when they're in the minority, even if the Democrats have a super majority. To your point, they use the bully pulpit and they flip the public's mind, flip their opinion on many things, and then they drive that narrative home. And they famously said, we're gonna make Barack Obama one term president. Now, they failed. But that's also because inherently their ideas are not good. Our ideas are good. Right. But it's that relentless use of the bully pulpit that arguing and changing minds. Democrats, I feel like, always treat issues like they're almost like, stagnant. Like politics is not fluid, like it's stagnant.
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Unknown A
And hey, wherever people are is where they are. And they act like it's not their job to sort of craft public opinion in a better direction. So let me ask you this. Who do you think the standard bearer should be or who should the Democratic leader be in a moment like this? I have my ideas, but I'm curious, yours?
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Unknown B
Oh, you have ideas. I mean, first, just to your original point, I mean, Democrats need to. At large, we. They all need to get better at doing this. It's not just about sticking your finger out in the wind and seeing which way the wind is blowing, but it's figuring out how to make the wind blow in the direction you need it to go in order to win. And that's what we want to see more of, I would say. You know, I think there's just a lot of new fresh faces in Congress that I would like to see is future leaders and really taking on leadership positions, from Brian Schatz in the Senate to, I mean, AOC in the House, and Maxwell Frost and Pat Ryan and Dave Min. The list goes on. But I think it really, the fresh voices we're seeing, that kind of challenge traditional Democratic Party orthodoxy is, Is incredibly refreshing.
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Unknown B
And I think it's the future of the party. And it's only a matter of time before we see a change in. In leadership. Yeah.
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Unknown A
So what about protests and lawsuits? Your thoughts there? I know that we've had a number of union lawsuits now against Elon Musk directly for what he's doing with Doge with the illegal cuts. I've seen, I mean, my understanding right now, I read article the other day, I think there's 23 lawsuits currently against both Elon and Trump. What's your impression on that strategy, number one, and number two, organizing, protesting in the street. I mean, I love this idea of making the phone calls which you guys are leading on. What are the different vectors of resistance here that we should be looking for? Give people sort of like a game plan moving forward on how. How to fight back.
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Unknown B
That's a great question. So these lawsuits are an essential ingredient in the larger formula to us stopping the Trump Musk agenda and winning back power in 2026 and 2028. But they're just one of the ingredients. So big picture, what we need to do is we need to leverage the undeniable backlash that is coming that is already being built and that will continue to be built as a result of this agenda. Leverage that bring people back into our coalition, push back on Project 2025, and do it in a way that helps rebuild a winning coalition for 2026. Because what we need is to take back the House. It is a critical backstop to this dangerous agenda. And all of that is with an eye towards 2028. The litigation is so essential because the courts have really critical role in stopping what is illegal in terms of their acts, but also in slowing them down so that mobilization groups like MoveOn and others can get our arms around what the situation is, educate folks, and then figure out what is the strategic way for us to move into action together.
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Unknown B
It's not always a protest. And protests were the new brunch in 2016 through 2020. And really what we're seeing now is people want to take action, but they want to be strategic, they want to be impactful. They don't just want to go out and protest. Plenty of people protested today, though, you know, so that that's still in fashion. But there is a pathway to stop them. Because what I said earlier, their agenda is unpopular with their own base. If we can make sure their own base understands and processes, what's happening. And so these, they're particular. There's like, there's couple dozen Republicans that are in, like, moderate districts that actually are hearing a lot from their own voters about, you know, these USAID cuts are impacting farmers and their, and their, their revenue back at home. Cuts to all these other vital services, SNAP benefits. Like, people are freaking out.
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Unknown B
They're hearing about this and they're calling their Republican member of Congress, which doesn't often happen. And we know they're rattled. They're rattled about Elon Musk getting his grubby hands and bullying his way into the treasury and now the IRS and all these other agencies. So if we can continue to pressure these Republicans and have them push back on this administration. And the theory isn't because, oh, because Donald Trump will one day wake up and be a nice guy. It's all about power. He will lose the majority in the House if he ignores the concerns of his own Republican constituents. And so it's like, what is that calculus? And so that's why a lot of our recess efforts this week, if you go to moveon.org recess, you can join them. We're focusing on driving actions in Republican districts, putting pressure on these folks to stop and to vote no on these dangerous cuts.
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Unknown A
So was your reaction to Hakeem Jeffries? This was my reaction. I'm curious what yours was. Now triple the phone calls. Because that's how I felt when I saw what he said. I said, you know what?
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Unknown B
Oh, it's working. I'm kind of like, I don't like to be the brunt of Grapefest, but it's working. And we even saw some of those members that were upset at us. Now they're tweeting, I'm on the phones with my constituents, talking to them about the issues that matter them. So thank you. That was my reaction.
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Unknown A
Yeah, no, that's great. And I would say to him, look, if you want to come out and say something similar to what you said again, then expect the phone calls to quintuple, because we're going to come out here and say it again. So you're the servant of the people. It's not the other way around. And this is the proof that that's the case. Let me ask you this. And by the way, you laid out a great idea there where targeting Republicans in purple districts on purpose is. It really is like, almost like a weak point in their agenda where those people are skating on thin ice. And so as soon as they feel more afraid of completely losing their seat for going along with Trump's agenda, then that changes the balance of power, that changes the dynamic, and that's. It's a smart strategy, and honestly hadn't occurred to me before that, so I think that's a great point.
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Unknown A
Public pressure working. There was a moment where they froze Medicaid funds. Remember this? Health care of 72 million people. They froze it, and then there was this colossal backlash and huge outcry, and they were forced to rescind it. Trump did it through executive order. Then they said, oh, no, no, we didn't mean Medicaid, and we gotta fix it. And then within a day and a half, they had flipped it. But do you view that as a positive sign moving forward, that when the fever pitch is high enough, it's okay, they can't go too far?
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Unknown B
Yes, I think it's evidence of what I was saying. Like, once they. Once they're on, they're driving an issue that's massively unpopular even with their folks, they're going to have immediate backlash. And our job is to funnel that backlash immediately so they. As quickly as possible. So the day that they did the OMB freeze, you know, within two hours, we were mobilizing calls into Congress right away, we drove 10,000 calls over 24 hours on that freeze. And that was, you know, and that was just move on. And there were tons of other groups that were mobilizing voters to call their elected officials in that moment. That was very scary because that memo was all federal. Federal. Federal grants and federal funding. It could have been anything under that list. And it was very ambiguous and. And unclear. And so it threw, you know, people into panic.
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Unknown B
And, you know, so anyway, yes, I think it's evidence that they can go too far and that we can organize to pull them back. But, you know, I'm not gonna pretend our job is easy. And we need every single person to be vigilant, to volunteer, to be alert, to talk to people in their community, and to kind of be willing to step out of your comfort zone for.
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Unknown A
The future of your country, tell people exactly how they can do that, exactly how they can become a member and move on and get politically involved. Cause there's a lot of people out there who are listening to this, who are just waiting. They are chomping at the bit to hop in.
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Unknown B
That's true. You can go to moveon.org recess and this week, you can either host your own event in your district or you can join one, if there's one already in your district. We make it easy for you. We give you all the support. We give you a guide on how to do it. It's actually not hard because you know what the number one thing you need to be able to do to do this? You need to be a human being who lives in your community and has an opinion about how you want things to happen in your community. That's all you have to be. And that gives you the privilege and the agency to apply pressure to the person you helped elect into office to represent you.
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Unknown A
Yeah. And it's all about action. You know, everybody likes to talk, myself included. I literally talk for a living. But it's when you actually start doing stuff that, that things change.
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Unknown B
I like to say we're not going to tweet ourselves out of this nightmare.
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
The way we're going to get out of it is we're going to come together and we're going to wisely and strategically apply our energy and pressure people that have key decision making roles to do the right thing.
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Unknown A
That's right. All right. Ronna Epting, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate, appreciate it. Everybody check out. Move on.