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Unknown A
You reached out to me and said, is there any way I could talk you into doing a small cameo in the White Lotus? And my first response was, well, how much would that cost me?
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Unknown B
We were casting a part for a lawyer. I was in Koh Samui. You sent me the first recordings. I listened to it. I almost shit my pants because I was like, I don't know.
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Unknown A
This sucks.
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Unknown B
This sucks. I don't know if it's going to fly. And I think I had. I heard you mention it on. On, I think on Pivot. And so I was extra nervous that I was going to somehow disappoint you. I did not want to disappoint you.
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Unknown A
David, where's this podcast find you?
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Unknown B
Los Angeles. After two weeks on the road in Asia and dc, so lost my voice, but happy to be home.
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Unknown A
So this show, if I was a. And there's a reason why I'm not an executive, hbo, if I was pitched on the show, I'm not sure I would have seen it. It being this thing, it's sort of become a little bit of a cultural phenom. What do you think it is about this show that is tapped into? When people ask me, I say, I love the wildest. I'm obsessed with it. And they say, why? I have a. If they ask me about Game of Thrones, I can kind of explain why I'm obsessed with it. And what is it about this show, in your view, that just sort of tapped into this kind of zeitgeist? It's turned it into kind of this phenom.
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Unknown B
I should clarify. I think if HBO was pitched the show, they probably would have passed because to their credit, they basically called Mike White and said, so this is July of 2020, when Covid had started. They said, do you have an idea that you could do in a bubble that can be on the air in 2021? We'll do it. And Mike said, yeah, I got one. And he didn't even have an idea. He basically had to come up with something in a month, and they basically sent us off to Hawaii. They had no idea what it was. They just trusted in Mike. And we came back with season one of White Lotus. But I think there's an honesty to the show that people respond to. I think, you know, Mike White, I think, is a genius, and he. He's an observer of humanity and observer of character, and I think he writes from a very authentic place.
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Unknown B
You know, Mike, we both love reality tv. Mike loves reality tv. And I think he's tapping into what people Love about reality tv, which is every person's not all good or bad or funny or dramatic. We're all, you know, most people are all flavors. And so I think he writes characters in that way, and people really respond to that. I also think he talks. Talked about culture and the human experience in a very real, authentic way. Not a lot of people are doing that.
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Unknown A
Give us a little bit of your backstory. How did you get to this position? And what exactly does an executive producer do? Like, what have you been doing for the last three or four months?
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Unknown B
Yeah, so I'm from. From dc, Grew up there, and. And, you know, I. I wanted to be a producer since I was a little kid. I came across a movie shooting in a mall in D.C. called First Kid, the Sinbad Movie. When I was a kid and somehow talked my way off to the set. I met the director, I met Sinbad, I met the other stars. And I kind of like, this is what I want to do when I grow up. So I started in the mailroom at UTA and really want to start at the bottom. Really wanted to kind of see all aspects of the business. And I was very fortunate to meet Mike White almost 20 years ago when I was at UTA, and I've been working with him ever since. And, you know, my parents don't know what a producer does. I don't think anyone really knows what a producer does.
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Unknown B
But I'm. I basically like the glue guy. I'm. I'm. Every project requires something different. You know, I do show a show called Jury Duty that's on Amazon. That's a show that I originated. I'm intricately involved in the edit, intricately involved in production, casting, all aspects of that. White Lotus is really. Mike's the genius of Mike, of White Lotus, and I'm there to support him. You know, I'm very involved in, you know, every aspect of White Lotus when Mike needs me. So for the last three months, you know, we've been in post. I give notes on the edit, you know, I push on hbo. Whether it's about music, release date, marketing materials, promotion, I'm involved in all aspects of that. And really, you know, I'm there every day with Mike. You know, we start. We start together from the origination to scouting to casting to locations, to hiring a crew.
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Unknown B
And I'm there every day on set. So I kind of just, you know, I'm there. I'm there to solve issues and prevent issues from coming up.
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Unknown A
When I think about the White Lotus, there seems to be a theme or a Certain. I don't know. Someone told me that it's about. It's a different seven deadly Sins. What are the creative anchors you try to hold onto? If you ended up doing a season eight, what do you think would be the common themes that would still be static through season eight that are present in 1, 2 and 3?
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Unknown B
I think part of what makes the show even in the first season, like our ratings came out yesterday and the show was up, I think, 92% from season one. So sorry. From season two up 40% week to week. And I think part of that is, you know, what the thematic approach and what the idea of the show is evolving. So I don't think we'd be able to say what season eight is. I think Mike is kind of responding to culture. And I think season one was definitely a reaction to what Mike was feeling in the moment with culture. And I think season two, which was kind of this, you know, it was a bedroom farce, but it really took on sexual politics, was a response to something Mike was feeling. I think season three is much darker than the previous seasons and it's a little more existential and was a little more angst.
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Unknown B
And I think that speaks to how Mike was feeling in the moment. And I think he's tackling existential themes and existential ideas. So it's always going to feel current in that way. But what we're tackling, I think is a reaction to something that Mike is feeling.
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Unknown A
I'm curious with casting because when I first saw the lineup, how do you. When you think of a character and you think, okay, does it immediately go, parker Posey would be the right person for this, or does she read and you decide that she brings life to the character? I would think casting would be such a. Is it an art or a science? How do you go about it?
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Unknown B
It's a question. I think it's both, possibly. I think it's definitely something that evolves and you kind of learn and you kind of sharpen your instincts. But it really. For us, the approach from season one has always been don't give in to the temptation to just cast someone famous or a name and really approach it with an authenticity. In casting people that feel like they embody the characters and the traits of the storytelling because it really. Mike's. What's genius about Mike's storytelling is not really they're characters, but those characters are just pawns in a bigger thematic idea. And each storyline is meant to resonate on a deeper level than just a character story. There's A deeper theme, each story that's being told. And so you really need characters that immediately, visually, you get it, and they feel authentic to the story that's being told. So, you know, 98% of the actors audition.
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Unknown B
There's someone like Parker Posey, who Mike has done for a very long time and has, you know, a body of work that speaks to exactly what we were looking for. So someone like Parker didn't audition, but, you know, everyone else on the season did. And I think we go into casting kind of blind to names. We're not looking for names. We're looking for the right person. And it's a process. And I think the science of it really is kind of never deviating from those ideas. Don't try to get seduced by big names. Really be thorough, don't rush, and feel 100% confident whenever we make a decision. It's a long process. The casting process is 10 weeks usually. It's grueling. Meredith Tucker is our casting director. Mike went to college with. I've been working over 20 years, so we have a great shorthand. She's amazing. And hbo, they're great partners, really trust us.
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Unknown B
And even if they might not agree with the casting decision, they always give us the authority to do creatively what we feel is best.
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Unknown A
You've been in the business for a couple decades. Describe. Give us your sense. My understanding is an executive producer, at the end of the day, you've got to have business acumen. You got to understand budgets. You got to understand trends. You're basically managing a small business that gets funding, starts up, and then closes down, and then you hopefully monetize it. What do you see are the major trends in Hollywood, and how has that shifted your approach to the business?
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Unknown B
You know, I've been in business 21, 22 years now, and I think for me, what I've seen is, you know, there was an expansion and now contraction. And I think the biggest difference between, you know, 2025 and 2023, I would say, as a producer, 2023, you could go out the project and maybe it's, you know, 50, 50. It sells, and you're going to put a lot of energy and time into that. And 10% chance it gets made. It's a flyer. And I'm going to kind of take 10 projects out. Six of them might be flyers like that. Those projects aren't selling right now. So I'm really trying to kind of refocus my energy and refocus my time on projects. I feel 80%, about 90% about that when I take it onto the marketplace, they're going to sell. And, you know, that contraction feels like a.
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Unknown B
Just a natural traction. There was possibly too many shows being made and those shows weren't working. And I think there was just a. You know, it made it harder for shows to break out. So for me, as a producer, you kind of just gotta ride the wave. I think to be a producer, you have to be an optimist. I think every producer would tell you that. So I wake up every morning going, today's the day that my project's gonna get green light. I'm gonna come up with a great idea that, you know, this show or movie is gonna be a hit. And I approach every day in that way. And so because I take that approach, I don't really change what I'm doing, for better or worse. I really. I look for ideas, I look for writers or actors that I'm passionate about and themes I'm passionate about.
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Unknown B
And that's how I approach every project. I don't really kind of view the marketplace in a broader sense and kind of try to game the system. I just try to find things that I'm excited about. And that's really. To take it back to White Lotus. That's really all White Lotus was. Was Mike telling stories that he was passionate about, casting people he was excited about and not trying to think about how do I make a hit or how do I, you know, speak to a broader audience.
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Unknown A
I want to put forward two theses or observations as an outsider. Like, I like to understand economics. I'm fascinated with the industry. And you respond to each of them. The first thesis is that what Japan did to Detroit, kind of Netflix is doing to Los Angeles. And that is, I read that of the $18 billion content budget that Netflix spends annually on content, that for the first time, more than half of it is being spent overseas. And at the same time, I also read the production's down 40% in LA. Is the globalization of the media industry that's stuck in capital kind of out of America, specifically out of Los Angeles? Is it as evident as I think it is?
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Unknown B
Maybe that's a great question. Again, for as long as I've been in the business, production in LA and California has been an issue. I think it's, you know, not having the numbers in front of me, and maybe there's numbers. The production in Los Angeles has decreased the last, you know, 15, 20 years, which probably has, but I think it's always been an issue. And, you know, there's there's a push and pull, right? So you want more people to be employed, you want more shows. We may want more movies to be made. That requires a certain amount of budget. And then when you have a budget in front of you, you want to make 10 movies as opposed to eight. The best way to accomplish that may be to go to Canada, to go to, you know, X country that Bulgaria, Hungary, Eastern Europe, that offers certain rebates so you can make more for less.
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Unknown B
And so I think it's a fundamental issue, and it's something that Californians look at is how can we get proper tax credits, production credits, to keep productions in Los Angeles. Because, you know, as a producer, I live in Los Angeles. This is my family is, this is where my friends are. I want to be in Los Angeles. So I'm not incentivized to leave. But if a, if Netflix or Paramount or Sony or HBO comes to me and they say you have $10 million to make this movie or show. And I'm looking at the math and, and I can get 15 extra days if I go to Toronto and I can, you know, and I can pay more for cast or pay more for directors if I go to Vancouver. It's, it's a, it's an easy decision, to be honest, you know, even though it makes my life harder and it's not something I want to do.
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Unknown B
And so it is so much easier to make movies and shows in Los Angeles, full stop. But until we solve the production, you know, tax credit issue, I think this will always be a conversation.
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Unknown A
Both of you mentioned, you mentioned two cities in Canada. Is Canada, is that your go to. If you're talking about talent versus economics or stack ranking, what do you think of the most popular places on a risk adjusted basis? When you look at cost versus access to talent in beautiful locales, I've been fortunate.
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Unknown B
I've shot in every tax, I've shot Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, New Orleans or Louisiana. I've shot in every one of these prominent rebate cities. You know, the thing as a producer, what you're weighing is it's always weather. Weather's always a concern and an issue. And each of these cities have different challenges. You know, Los Angeles, again is the beauty of LA is give or take maybe a month or two, you're going to get great weather. But then you're also looking at local crew, local casting, and does that city have, you know, a crew base and a talent actor base for, you know, for these smaller parts that it makes it worthwhile to shoot there you know, I'm doing a movie for Netflix this summer. We're going to be shooting in New York, New Jersey. There's a really prominent rebate there now. New Jersey. I know a lot of directions are going there, and so that for me would be number one.
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Unknown B
I've had a lot of success in Atlanta and in New Orleans, Louisiana. I think those are both really great cities, to be honest. My favorite city I've shot in, I shot a movie there. And the TV show there is Montreal. Crew's amazing. Montreal is the best city in North America. Great food, great nightlife. And so Montreal is actually a really. It's funny because Mike White and I shot a movie there. Brad Status, a Spencer movie, which I think you would love. Scott. And I've since told a lot of friends to go shoot productions there. And it's a really. They have a great tax credit, great crew, great local actors, and great lifestyle.
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Unknown A
So second thesis that the opacity of information. When you run something on Netflix, you don't know how, other than them renewing the season, you don't really know how well it's doing. Jennifer Aniston's agent knew that Friends was the anchor to the Thursday night and kind of reverse engineered how much ad revenue they're making and had the confidence to go ask for a million dollars per episode per cast member. And now that you really don't know what's working and what isn't, it's essentially what I perceive as a giant flow of capital from the industry, from the human capital to the shareholders of Netflix. Am I oversimplifying what's going on there?
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Unknown B
I have a controversial take on this. This is an issue that I've debated a lot, and I've been on all sides of this. So I had a show on NBC called Superstore, and I knew the numbers. We did 113 episodes. It's the most successful sitcom on NBC in the last 15 years, 20 years. And I knew all the numbers. And we would renegotiate every two years, whenever it was. And I would say that we won the negotiations. Right. I did a show for Amazon called Jury Duty. Did not know any of the numbers. We're not told a single number. And when we renegotiated, I would. I feel like I won that negotiation. And to me, it's. It boils down to as. As a, you know, a seller of product in the supply and demand world of Hollywood, you don't even need to know the numbers because you can feel the numbers when you negotiate.
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Unknown B
And ultimately the success of a movie or show, in my opinion having information doesn't really has not benefited me in my anecdotal experience. The energy from the buyer will dictate how well you're showed it because I saw the numbers on Superstore and I thought it did amazing. But what I discovered in my negotiations is it wasn't profitable for them and it still isn't profitable. I'm being told that's a different conversation to the funky number. You know the funky economics of studio counting, but you can feel the energy in negotiation when on the other side if your show is working or not. And so without knowing any of my jury duty numbers, I know the show worked by the nature of the negotiation and how badly wanted that show for a second season. That's my opinion. And I know that might seem ignorant, but again, like having information has never really benefited me in White Lotus 2, in our renegotiation season to season, we don't have the full scope of that show's numbers, but I know it's done well by the nature of HBO's desire in demand for us to do another season.
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Unknown A
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Unknown A
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Unknown B
G.
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Unknown A
Take yourself back 22 years. If you and you had the knowledge of knowing where this business is going to be today or if someone's starting out in the business any kind of macro thoughts on their career that this part of the business is going to be the easiest place to find employment. This is the medium, the size of a screen. Any advice to a, you know, a 22 year old, Dave, starting in this business, what, what do you see as the major themes and how does someone foot their efforts to trying to take advantage of those things in the industry?
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Unknown B
Yeah, that's a great question. I, you know, do a lot of coffees and zooms with people and my advice to anyone starting in the business would be if there's anything else on earth you can do, I would go do that.
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Unknown A
So your general advice is don't.
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Unknown B
Yeah, because I think this is a. And you talk about a lot about this. I know, and it's an incredibly difficult business and I think making a living in this business has gotten harder and harder for whatever reason. And I think that I, this is something I wake up every day, I live it, I breathe it, it's something I love and I feel incredibly fortunate to be doing and I can't imagine doing anything else on earth. And unless you have that kind of energy and passion for creating content, I would go do something else. And I look back and I like, you know, think about my personal journey and I don't even, there's no straight line to it. It's just a series of decisions that I made in the moment that somehow worked out. And I think there's a, you know, and again there's an incredible amount of rejection and no's and closed doors on my journey.
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Unknown B
And I remember people would say to me, oh, you're so lucky. And I would think to myself, well, you sure? Maybe, but you also haven't seen the insane amount of hours and dedication and sacrifice I put into this in my 20s and 30s to get to this level. And still, you know, something like White Lotus happened as a result of COVID and a bunch of series of fortunate events that led to White Lotus. And so it's not like there's no straight line and there's no advice I can give other than go do something else. Unless you are willing to kind of sacrifice your, you know, seven days a week and most of your life to this business. And you know, I was, I was reading an article yesterday, there was a, you know, smart article, this like, you know, 45 year old podcaster that created a network about true crime and she's, you know, clearing like 40 million in profit every year.
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Unknown B
And I found myself thinking about like, I give myself like advice on my Younger stuff. I'm like, get into Pocket, you know, the device. But I'm like, get into some. Some other new media business because, you know, it's. Making film and TV is really challenging, really heartbreaking. And again, it's difficult to make a living. And I'm. And I'm. And I'm saying this as someone who's incredibly fortunate and who's doing it, and that would be my advice. A little cynical and a little bully, but it's true.
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Unknown A
What have you worked on that surprised you? Most of the upside or the downside in terms of its commercial success? Like what. What did you think was going to be bigger than it was? And what was bigger than you thought it might be?
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Unknown B
I mean, Jury Duty is a good example. And I don't know if you've seen it. It's an interesting anecdote. It originated just. I was watching the Netflix documentary on a couch, had a kernel of an idea called A Producer Friend. It was about 2017, 2018. We started talking about it. We kind of came up with this concept, brought it to writers. It was a long journey. When we went out and pitched it, basically everyone passed except for this woman, Lauren Anderson, who was taking over a segment of Amazon. It was called, at that point called IMDb TV. They rebranded the freebie so, you know, Amazon proper had passed on it. It didn't fit their algorithm or whatever their calculus was. And we just so happened to have perfect timing with this woman, Lauren Anderson, who. Who basically invested in us and bet on us. It was a crazy concept.
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Unknown B
It was a verbal pitch, 10 minutes, and they gave us a healthy amount of money to make a very experimental show. And when the show launched, no one watched it, and it got bad reviews and it didn't really work. And then over a weekend, someone on TikTok posted about it, and all of a sudden it just became this hit. And it moved from freebie to Amazon proper and then was a hit on Amazon. And so it was. I still don't know why it worked. And maybe people just. Maybe it was so original, but it kind of came out of nowhere. And that one surprised me the most. I think, you know, I did a show called White House Plumbers with Woody Harrelson.
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Unknown A
Fantastic.
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Unknown B
And that one. That one was a surprise. I think when that came out, I think we just kind of. It came out too late. I think that one was delayed because of COVID And I'm really proud of that show. And I think by the time it came out, people were over, you know, nonfiction, historical nonfiction. And I feel like over, you know, oversaturated political dramas. And that one, I feel like should have been worked better than it did, and I'm still very proud of it. And that one, you know, that was what I also worked on for 10 years before it was made. And that one was really personal to me, and I wish it had done better. But again, it's a rhyme or reason. You can't really time it. And that's why it's a tough business. You can't really. You can. All you can do is control what you make.
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Unknown B
And whether audience is fine or not is so out of your control and really comes down a lot of times, timing in the universe.
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Unknown A
As my listeners will know, I bring on guests mostly to talk about me. So let's get. Let's bring this back to me. And, uh, so I met. I met David through a mutual friend, Ben Stiller. You've been friends with him for several decades. I've only been friends with Ben for a couple years. And we hit it off and you reached out to me and said, is there any way I could talk you into doing a small cameo in the White Lotus? And my first response was, well, how much would that cost me? And so I'm super excited. David was generous enough to include me in a small role where I'm. Will you explain it? Who am I, David?
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Unknown B
I want to look your podcasts. Both of them are, you know, if you. If my Spotify rap, it's number one. Both your podcasts. And if I have to define my personality or someone asked me who. Who kind of encapsulates your personality point of view on the world, it's Scott Calloway. And so. So that dinner with Ben was. It was a. For me meeting my number one celebrity crush. And. And I have a. I have a text thread with 6 of my guy friends and we've been texting every day for 15 years. I want to say. And it is. It is the embodiment of male friendship. It's everything. It's every. Every concept. But you are a frequent point of conversation, and this is the ultimate compliment. I think we use your. We will reference you or use one of your articles or something you said on one of the podcasts to prove a point.
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Unknown B
And so just that you are. You are my friends, my friend Neil, Paris Joe, poor Neil Shaling. These guys, we talk about you every day, probably. So meeting you was a big, big thrill for me. Getting to. Developing a friendship with you has been a big thrill. And so we were casting a Part for a lawyer.
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Unknown A
And.
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Unknown B
And we need someone that, you know, was kind of could deliver emotionless, very just to the point dialogue. And so we were on set and I said to Mike, I'm like, what about Scott Cowan? It's. Mike's a huge fan of yours also. And so, you know, I was thrilled when he said yes. I was nervous that maybe he wouldn't be able to deliver. And so if you don't mind, I'll tell you the story. So we were in. I was in Koh Samui. You sent me the first, your first recordings. I listened to it. I almost shit my pants because I was like, I don't know if that sucks. This sucks. I don't know if it's going to fly. And I think I had. Then I heard you mention it on, I think on Pivot. And so I was extra nervous that I was gonna somehow disappoint you.
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Unknown B
I did not wanna disappoint you. And so I called you, maybe it was back in la, it might've been still in Thailand. And I called you and I said, would you mind possibly re recording? You know, I was trying to be subtle about it. I don't want you to think that I was nervous.
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Unknown A
You were so managing me. You're like, it's great, but we think it can be better.
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Unknown B
Yeah. I said it to the editor, the editor's like, I don't know if this is gonna work. And then I was like, I'll give myself credit. I had the smart idea of sending Jason Isaacs over to your apartment. Just, you know, I was like, maybe Jason could help you read with you. And I was like very anxious. I was like, jason called me as soon as you get out of there. Jason called me and he goes, we, we did an hour of takes. It could be all dog shit. Maybe there's something in there. And I have to say, genuinely, you are great on the show. In those hour of recordings, we found gold. And as soon as Mike Kernic, he loved it, honestly, it was like, hey, this is great. I know. Mike told me wrote you. So you know I'm not full of shit.
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Unknown B
And I will be honest. And all my texts read, I was like keeping everyone updated. I'm like, we might have to cut Scott from the show. I'm freaking out. I love that talk about it too. And so I was really nervous. But I'm glad it worked out and I'm hoping this is the beginning of a long haul career for you. And you become. And when you win it at me, you have to thank me on stage. That's all I ask.
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Unknown A
Well, you don't know this. I've had five TV shows already today. They've all been canceled within two or three weeks. So I have a face for podcasting. But I'll give you my side of the story. I thought I did an amazing job, and I sent it to. And you were very supportive. And I remember telling my, take care. Oh, my God, I killed it. I was so good. And then I got the message from you saying, we think we can do better. And this handsome guy shows up to my apartment with movie star. Good luck. So I didn't know who Jason Isaac was. I didn't put the two and two together. I'm like. I'm like, dude, you're the guy from the Patriot. And he's actually one of these very accomplished British actors. And by the way, I think. The way I loved this first two episodes, I think kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it.
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Unknown A
I think Parker is amazing because he's just so quirky, but I think Jason kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it. But anyways, he came over. He was on his way to a tennis lesson, this handsome guy. And he's like, I'm here to help. And we went into my studio, and for an hour, I'd hit a line, and he'd go like, okay, this is the situation. I'm about to fire you. And you don't know what to say, and you're a little scared. Hit the line. And then he's like, no, hit again. Dial it up. And I walked away. Or he would say to me, this guy's such an asshole. And you just found out. He's like, okay, that's good. But now this guy's such an asshole, and you just found out he's having an affair with your wife. He's like, let it sink in.
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Unknown A
Let it sink in. Now hit it. And he made me do this over and over with different situations and different emotions and different feelings. And I walked away from that hour with such an appreciation for just how fucking hard it is what you do. Because I thought, oh, I've been in boardrooms. I know how to own a room. I know how to deliver something unemotionally. That's not it. That's not enough in Hollywood to really get across the. There's so much more that goes into it, and people don't appreciate just how fucking difficult it is to bring out the emotions and the resonance and the logic and move an audience. And I'M not saying. I'm not saying that scene was able to do it, but you're able to do it, and so are other creatives. And when this guy walked out of my house, my tech guy was there, Drew.
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Unknown A
And he's on the line now. And I remember saying to Drew, I'm not sure, but I think that guy just turned chicken shit into chicken salad. And he was so good. This is an actor. I'm not sure he's even directed before, but he was in my face, sweating, burning calories, giving me weird, strange advice to try and get my voice up, down, down, trying to put me in the right frame. And I remember thinking, what these people do, whatever they're making, they're not making enough. Because what this is, is hard. And it was such an illuminating experience for me. So thank you for that. It gave me a new appreciation for the art form because I think a lot of people think that acting is just like showing up and being who you are. Oh, my God. It's not. It was one of the most difficult, taxing hours I've ever had.
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Unknown A
It was really. I can't imagine what it's like to be on set and have all this alchemy and it's not working. And then to try to coach people through it, it's got to be, you know, you are juggling, I would think, just a ton of plates, except the plates are actors, directors, cinematographers. It must just be incredibly difficult. Your thoughts, Dave?
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Unknown B
Imagine that is experience with 200 people looking at you and, you know, you're the stress of a schedule, trying to get to the scene, losing light and all of that. And for actors to be able to perform on set under that pressure and deliver great performances, it is a. It is a true talent and is not easy, but, you know, funny. Beast Isaac is incredibly accomplished guy, and he loves acting. I think he took so much pleasure in that hour he spent with you. I think he, like, really, he's the kind of guy who would talk about acting and would be acting 24 hours a day if someone pay him or he would do it for free, honestly. But, yeah, I have. You know, I've been. I make little cameos, and most of the stuff I do and I've been, I pop up in White Lotus, and every time I'm on set and I'm in a scene and I don't have any dialogue, usually it's kind of, you know, I'm doing some sort of action, I'm like, thank fucking God.
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Unknown B
I don't want to be an actor, because it is a horrible, hard, hard job to kind of. And also to give yourself to a camera and be that vulnerable. But, you know, it also speaks to how talented directors are to be able to manage that, you know. You know, everyone has an ego, right. And so you're basically going up to someone going, that was kind of shitty. Can you do it a different way? Or your instincts are off, do it my way. And how do you deliver that in a way that doesn't offend them and, you know, get what you want out of the actor? But, yeah, it's a. It's tough. It's all. It's a tough business. And again, it speaks to, you know, great performances are not easy to come by.
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Unknown A
So just as we wrap up here, a lot of young men listen to the show and they hear someone successful like you, and they think, I'd like to be that guy. Can you talk a little bit about growing up who are really big influences in your life, people or kind of situations that sort of change your life?
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Unknown B
Yeah. This is something that I really love about your work and what you talk about and something that really resonates with me. And, you know, my parents are both Nigerian immigrants, and my grandparents are all Holocaust survivors. And, you know, my father is someone who, you know, he didn't speak the language when he immigrated from Budapest. He ended up in Montreal and eventually in America. But he's someone my grandfather made sure. My father, you know, really learned what work ethic is and an appreciation for work. And that's something my father instilled in me, and he was probably my first mentor. But I had a English teacher and a basketball coach named My Kibbs who changed my life and introduced me to storytelling. And it was so tough on me from a place of love and a place that really responded. So when I started at UTA and I was in the mailroom, nothing was ever going to be as difficult and challenging as my basketball coach, English teacher, and how he pushed me and that mentorship and really changed my life.
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Unknown B
And I told my this, you know, my initiative, my kids, when I was in high school, that was one day going to fly him out to a premiere when I make my first movie. And I flew him out to the white leather premiere two weeks ago, and it was almost 30 years to when I told him I would do that. And having him there was so moving for me, I think moving for him. And, you know, he's so. He's dedicated his life to mentoring young men, whether it's on the basketball court or in the English. English class. And, and I think for me, I wanted him to see what his mentorship meant to me and what I was able to accomplish. And I feel very fortunate to have that relationship. And you talk a lot about this and even like my text read, I was referencing my six buddies.
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Unknown B
We push each other every day. And those friendships, really, they ground you and they keep you humble, but they also push you in a way. And I would say that's really why I'm here today. Honestly, talking to you is, were those.
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Unknown A
Relationships and whenever I've known you for that long, but it seems like you're wasn't like, you know, eight time zones away. How do you. I know very little about your personal life. How do you. And maybe you don't. How do you establish any sort of momentum or attraction in a relationship?
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Unknown B
I don't. I'm single, I'm 44. And you know, that's part, that's a part of my life. I feel like I've sacrificed to kind of get to where I am currently and, and I try to maintain those relationships. But part of being a producer and, and part of being a producer is actually there doing the work. It almost becomes all encompassing. So it's hard at night to give yourself emotionally or in the morning before work because you're either your tank is at zero or you're distracted. And that's something that, you know, I've, that's something that I haven't figured out also in my life and how to find that balance and something that I'm, you know, I need to work on and be better at because, you know, and it's, and, you know, I have another really great mentor. One of the partners at CAA who, right before I went to go do White Lotus Season 3, said to me, he sent me an email and said, you know, really, I'd love for you to come by CA and see me before you leave.
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Unknown B
And I was actually talking about some work stuff and I went to his office and he said, you know, I don't want to talk about work. You're doing great and I'm really proud of you. What I want to talk about is your personal life and the fact I want you to end up like me and how can we change that part of your life? And he, you know, and he took an interest in that really mean a lot to me. And it's something that I've been thinking about and how do I, how do I find that balance? And that's something I haven't figured out. Yet.
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Unknown A
And what do you do for sort of meditation or relaxation or just to stay kind of centered, given the amount of anxiety and insecurity in your industry?
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Unknown B
I mean, I'm not just. I listen to pivot. That's what everybody is. I'm not joking, I'm not kidding when I say, you know, all my downtime, every flight. You kind of narrated my experience in Thailand. And, you know, I must have been on 45 flights last year in and out of Thailand, and I would listen to Prof. G. Or your pivot. I mean, I, for me, yeah, I watch a lot of reality tv, to be honest, and listen to podcasts and, you know, finding a good hobby or getting into meditation, something I need to also figure out. I have a lot of work to do on myself is basically what I'm learning from this conversation. But I haven't found that, that thing yet that helps me fully disconnect because, you know, even listening to Pivot or listening to, you know, that to me is partly this work.
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Unknown B
I've taken a lot of good stock advice from you. You've made me good money. So I owe you a dinner next time I see you.
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Unknown A
But I think I owe you my kids, when my kids hear me in the White Lotus, I owe you. I haven't told them. I can't tell you how excited I haven't told them we're going to watch it. It's going to be. You have brought, you're going to bring so much credibility to me amongst my 14 and 17 year old. So I owe you a couple. Just a couple more serious questions before we go. Anyone in your life you lost or that's not around that you wish you could say something to?
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Unknown B
Yeah, I, when I was, when I was working at UTA and I was an assistant, and that was one of the best experiences of my life, being going from the mail room, working for a partner, David Kramer there, who, who also was a huge mentor. Like he was a huge mentor in my life. And he would, every Monday morning I'd come in, he'd say, how many scripts do you read this weekend? And if I, you know, and I was six years, that's not good enough. Eight, that's not good enough. You know, so he really pushed me by work ethic. And I met this young assistant named James J. Kaplan. James Kaplan, who was working for this director, Stan Ferris, and we struck up a really amazing friendship. And he helped me find the strength to leave UTA and go kind of really pursue my creative dreams.
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Unknown B
And we were starting a company and we we actually sold our first project. We were negotiating and producing it together and you know, we. He died suddenly. He had a brain aneurysm at 28 and he collapsed and I rushed to UCLA Hospital. I was there at his bedside and he passed away. And he had just gotten married. He just directed his first commercial. And again, we just sold our first project. And I dedicated every movie and show I do. I put him in the dedication. And I think about him every day. And for me, I don't think I definitely wouldn't be wearing that now without him and that relationship. And we talked every day and we were such a great sounding board and it was such a huge loss. And so I wish he was here to kind of see what I've been able to accomplish and for me to tell my love him and how much he meant to me and how much his support as a friend during some tough times in my twenties really, really helped me.
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Unknown A
And last thing anybody, and it's going to be serious, not serious. You'd just love to give a shout out to and have them be surprised that if and when they hear about this, you just are thinking of just something, someone you're thinking about and anything you'd like to say to them and it'll get back to them.
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Unknown B
Yeah, I mean, Neil Paris, it's one of my group of friends because we talked about the other day. Neil Paris, Neil Shaw, Joe Port, Ravi Patel, Evan Winokker, May Arcecki. That's my text, Red. Like I told you, you come up almost daily. And I think they were the first persons, first people I told that I was coming on the show. I think there's probably a, you know, like in every great group of male friends. They're probably jealous, they're competitive, but also proud of me. And so I think I'm really. Yeah. And also each of them are like, you better shout us out on the podcast.
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Unknown A
Checked. David Bernad is the Emmy winning executive producer for HBO's the White Lotus. He's also known for producing Uncharted Jury Duty, Enlightened. And I didn't know this White House plumber. He joined us from Los Angeles. David, you were so far ahead of where I was. I didn't appreciate just how precious and wonderful it is to have kind of the friend group you have. And what you're gonna find is that you are the average. And there's signs of this of those five guys. And so you guys building and loving each other. It just, it's, it's, it's not only incredibly rewarding It's a smart thing to do because you guys will progress and you'll fall together. I'm telling you, in 15 years, you're gonna look back, hopefully on your kids and your career, and you're gonna feel great. But it almost means nothing. It's almost as if it doesn't happen without that text group and you're just a great exam.
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Unknown A
Just so happy for your success and that you found you have your tribe of people to share it with. Thanks so much, David. And again, thanks for the opportunity. This was such a treat for me.
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Unknown B
Thank you, Scott.